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Old 02-05-2010, 02:57 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
Reputation: 822

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Quote:
Originally Posted by getout View Post
Your "manifesto" was derogatory to begin with, so not of a quality worth me reading.

Your opinion of my posts frankly doesn't matter. Back on topic? Shall we?
Not really derogatory at all. How would even know if you haven't read it? Hey, I'm just saying if you only read quality stuff...

Anyways, my point is that we shouldn't punish the poor for simply being poor.
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:11 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,137,256 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Not really derogatory at all. How would even know if you haven't read it? Hey, I'm just saying if you only read quality stuff...

Anyways, my point is that we shouldn't punish the poor for simply being poor.
Please do not be insulted, I did begin to read and decided not to read any further.

If they are poor criminals why should we pay for them? Because they are poor? Rewarding criminal behavior is exactly why we have such a large illegal alien problem today. They need first have never come here by breaking the law and now they need to leave.
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:18 PM
 
Location: California
706 posts, read 795,924 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Not really derogatory at all. How would even know if you haven't read it? Hey, I'm just saying if you only read quality stuff...

Anyways, my point is that we shouldn't punish the poor for simply being poor.
T1G,
How are we doing this ? Considering that (in this forum at least) we are discussing people who are here illegally, isn't the "punishment" directed at those people who have broken a law and not because of their bank accounts or stock holdings ?

BL
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Old 02-05-2010, 03:34 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,144,640 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by getout View Post
Please do not be insulted, I did begin to read and decided not to read any further.

If they are poor criminals why should we pay for them? Because they are poor? Rewarding criminal behavior is exactly why we have such a large illegal alien problem today. They need first have never come here by breaking the law and now they need to leave.
Don't you know that by having and enforcing our immigration laws that it means that we are "punishing the poor"? Of course it matters not that we already have the most generous legal immigration quotas in the world. We should just let them all in or we are "punishing the poor". Of course our own poor and not so poor are being punished by the presence of illegal aliens here but that matters not, right?

Last edited by chicagonut; 02-05-2010 at 04:01 PM..
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Old 02-06-2010, 01:25 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
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Please do not be insulted, I did begin to read and decided not to read any further.

Not insulted at all. Just saying that how could you pass judgment on something you haven't really seen (or in this case finish)?

If they are poor criminals why should we pay for them? Because they are poor? Rewarding criminal behavior is exactly why we have such a large illegal alien problem today. They need first have never come here by breaking the law and now they need to leave.

Again the situation is more nuanced that "criminals" v. "non-criminals". When you have a population intertwined within society such as the illegal immigrant population, you can no longer frame the issue in such simplistic terms.

Rewarding criminal behavior is DEF. not the reason why there is illegal immigration. South Africa has VERY strict anti-illegal immigration laws. People literally get away with murdering illegal Zimbabweans. However, there is a growing number of illegal immigrants in South Africa. Why? Well, the economic disparity between the two nations. Though a different manifestation, one can draw the same parallel with Mexico and the United States. The reason goes back to our unequal global economic situation (thank you colonialism, later neo-colonialism and the American Age).
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Old 02-06-2010, 01:26 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Don't you know that by having and enforcing our immigration laws that it means that we are "punishing the poor"? Of course it matters not that we already have the most generous legal immigration quotas in the world. We should just let them all in or we are "punishing the poor". Of course our own poor and not so poor are being punished by the presence of illegal aliens here but that matters not, right?
Once again, you are not taking all things into consideration. There are cities, districts, towns, that have a large tax base of illegal immigrants. Loss of that tax base, or not being counted in the census, means the poor lose out.
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Old 02-06-2010, 01:29 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
Reputation: 822
Quote:
Originally Posted by borderlord View Post
T1G,
How are we doing this ? Considering that (in this forum at least) we are discussing people who are here illegally, isn't the "punishment" directed at those people who have broken a law and not because of their bank accounts or stock holdings ?

BL
Great example is Postville, Iowa. Decreased tax base led to skyrocketing unemployment and the poorest of the town suffered more. The actions are not limited to simply the individuals.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:46 PM
 
Location: California
706 posts, read 795,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Great example is Postville, Iowa. Decreased tax base led to skyrocketing unemployment and the poorest of the town suffered more. The actions are not limited to simply the individuals.

While I agree with You on the aftermath of the Postville raid, it wasn't done to "punish the poor simply because they were poor". It was done, in fact because someone broke the law.

It would seem to me that Postville, and the plant itself, set themselves up for this raid by blatantly breaking the law. They are responsible for the results, as well as the illegals who accepted the jobs, knowing full well that the act itself was illegal and might well have negative repercussions on themselves,their families, as well as the town.

BL
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Old 02-06-2010, 08:51 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,076,327 times
Reputation: 822
While I agree with You on the aftermath of the Postville raid, it wasn't done to "punish the poor simply because they were poor". It was done, in fact because someone broke the law.

Given the way our society works, if this were a highly affluent area and those affected were highly affluent, do you think that Postville would be in the situation it is in today?

Areas that have larger amounts of illegal immigrants are usually poorer. The illegal immigrant population in Postville supported local businesses and brought in much needed revenue.

If illegal immigrants were quite well off, there would be more of an ability to change the outcome.


It would seem to me that Postville, and the plant itself, set themselves up for this raid by blatantly breaking the law. They are responsible for the results, as well as the illegals who accepted the jobs, knowing full well that the act itself was illegal and might well have negative repercussions on themselves,their families, as well as the town.

This is why we need reform as to not have another Postville. If the laws worked and were "just" the outcome would not be worse than the original state of things. If the laws were meant to protect the population, it would be reasonable to assume that Postville would be the same or better after the raid. However, the laws obviously had the opposite effect. This is not an isolated outcome of raids. We need to find means to normalize those that work in the United States.
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Old 02-06-2010, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 34,357,433 times
Reputation: 4893
The raids work. They are used here in the Phoenix Metro area and throughout Arizona.

Those that WERE here illegally are leaving - and, in significant numbers evidenced by a declining enrollment in several elementary schools that were believed to have high enrollment of children of illegal immigrants. One of the schools actually closed.

The argument that some tried to make that the illegals filled jobs that Americans did not want or would not take has not come to fruition. Those jobs vacated have been filled - and filled quickly, by individuals who are lawfully entitled to work in the US.

I love the raids. And, hope for more.
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