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Old 02-09-2010, 02:57 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
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You're right. Deragatory AND boring.
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Old 02-09-2010, 02:59 PM
 
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Macmeal, you crack me up. You are the one with a penchant for writing. The difference however is that your writings are the complete and utter truth.
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:06 PM
 
Location: central Oregon
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macmeal wrote:
"Huge, long-winded writings? Absolutely. They show a certain skill with a phrase. But are they relevant? No more so than any average 'short' piece, in my opinion. "
True.
That's one of the reasons I write poetry instead of novels. I can get long-winded as the next guy, but I prefer to say what I want using as little words as possible.
I gotta give the guy some credit though; he does have a wonderful way of writing. How many others can write the same phrases in hundreds of different ways?
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:35 PM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,050 posts, read 21,163,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
The man has a penchant for writing....no doubt about it. Yet in the end, there's been not a single mention of 'what to do' about illegal immigration that the average person could relate to..only a convoluted and vaguely-connected "tirade" against the entire American 'system', from the time of its founding, through its violent, abusive, and racist history, right up to the present day. The common thread running through ALL of it is that "we" (the average US citizen) could "do something" about illegal immigration if we ONLY...(changed our economy...changed our daily habits...changed the way we live...what we eat, what we buy....changed our xenophobia...opened our minds...and realized that the US is 'nothing special'...'got over ourselves'...lowered our expectations...etc etc etc etc.)

Meanwhile, mention is NEVER made that the remotest possibility may exist that some of these illegals are victims of their OWN societies; nor that these other societies are responsible for their own internal problems...(ALL of their problems, apparently, being the result of what "we" (the US) have "done to them"...(loaned them money...NOT loaned them money...started wars...failed to STOP other wars....made THEM start wars...dealt with 'tyrants'...made people "do what they do",... fomented 'class envy',..."imposed" our culture upon them by force...and in every way, "interfered" with their societies).

It's an entirely one-sided philosophy remarkable ONLY for its length, verbosity, and volume...basically, all he's really saying is that "US society is flawed; it's evil; it benefits NO ONE without some selfish expectation of 'return'...The US has NEVER invited immigrants unless it's to exploit them, and the US is both, at the same time, one of the most xenophobic, smug, and inward-looking societies on earth, while simultaneously allowing its businessmen to roam the earth looking to exploit all other nations by virtue of our 'globalism'....and that there's no such place as 'The Third World', because all societies are equally good and progresive...but there IS a Third World, because that's what the US has grown rich by exploiting....and the US has never "lifted a finger" to help an immigrant, preferring to 'use' and mistreat them, and strip them of their cultures...and yet, apparently, people outside the US must be extraordinarily gullible, because immigrants continue to pour in, even today, so they can get in on the 'exploitation' of themselves...and they all LOVE their countries of origin, and the proud cultures therein...but they fight tooth, nail, and claw, and scream 'bloody murder' in order to avoid deparation, from here where we 'exploit' them, to back home where they're 'appreciated'.

So are these impressive lengthy 'proclamations'..of course. The man, as I said, puts out an impressive number of words, in an impressive number of posts. But are they practical? No. Basically, they're all just an attempt to regularize the status of illegals by embarking on a paragraphs-long condemnation of the entire US system, history, and way of life, without allowing any comparisons with any other 'culprit'.

A verbose writer could do this on any subject. Imagine any crime or 'negative behavior' you want....from rape, murder, and mayhem...to malicious gossip, child abuse, burglary, jaywalking, or any of a thousand other occurrences. ANY such behavior could, if a writer wanted to, be laid at the feet of 'American society', and he could easily say "we (all of us) made the person do what he did"...and that his behavior annoyed..or outraged..or disturbed us, because we hadn't bothered to find out "WHY the person did" whatever it was that he was 'doing'. The implication is that child abuse wouldn't bother us if "only we learned WHY people abuse their children"....and that, if only we'd study the historical precedents for robbery (and the notion of private belongings), that we'd somehow come to terms with the burglars in our midst, intstead of 'demonizing' them.

These pieces on illegal immigration are no different. It's "our fault" it's happening, it's only an annoying problem because "we don't see the overall picture", and besides that, no one would have ANY objection to illegal immigration, if they weren't already predisposed to their feelings by racism, xenophobia, and 'anti-Hispanic' hysteria.

We might just as easily write a piece on "why the Sudan has never put a man on the moon"....or "why the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims could never get along together in Yugoslavia"....or "why The Taliban has never elected a woman to a leadership position"....or "why the Nazis never signed a peace treaty with the rest of Europe"....or "why Chinese haven't yet allowed much freedom of the press"..etc etc etc....and in every case, it would be "Why? That's EASY !!...it's because the USA wouldn't LET them, THAT'S why !....it's just too big, has too much influence, and interferes in too many things". In fact' I'm sure there are people on this forum who DO believe such things....but that doesn't make them true.

Huge, long-winded writings? Absolutely. They show a certain skill with a phrase. But are they relevant? No more so than any average 'short' piece, in my opinion.
And that ladies and gentlemen, is how a well written position piece reads. Best post so far, in my opinion, that this thread has seen.

I always thoroughly enjoy reading your writings, mac. I feel your presence in CD is actually appreciated and understood by many regulars on CD.
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:45 PM
 
3,424 posts, read 5,088,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
"US society is flawed; it's evil; it benefits NO ONE without some selfish expectation of 'return'...The US has NEVER invited immigrants unless it's to exploit them, and the US is both, at the same time, one of the most xenophobic, smug, and inward-looking societies on earth, while simultaneously allowing its businessmen to roam the earth looking to exploit all other nations by virtue of our 'globalism'....and that there's no such place as 'The Third World', because all societies are equally good and progresive...but there IS a Third World, because that's what the US has grown rich by exploiting....and the US has never "lifted a finger" to help an immigrant, preferring to 'use' and mistreat them, and strip them of their cultures...and yet, apparently, people outside the US must be extraordinarily gullible, because immigrants continue to pour in, even today, so they can get in on the 'exploitation' of themselves...and they all LOVE their countries of origin, and the proud cultures therein...but they fight tooth, nail, and claw, and scream 'bloody murder' in order to avoid deparation, from here where we 'exploit' them, to back home where they're 'appreciated'.

So are these impressive lengthy 'proclamations'..of course. The man, as I said, puts out an impressive number of words, in an impressive number of posts. But are they practical? No. Basically, they're all just an attempt to regularize the status of illegals by embarking on a paragraphs-long condemnation of the entire US system, history, and way of life, without allowing any comparisons with any other 'culprit'.

A verbose writer could do this on any subject. Imagine any crime or 'negative behavior' you want....from rape, murder, and mayhem...to malicious gossip, child abuse, burglary, jaywalking, or any of a thousand other occurrences. ANY such behavior could, if a writer wanted to, be laid at the feet of 'American society', and he could easily say "we (all of us) made the person do what he did"...and that his behavior annoyed..or outraged..or disturbed us, because we hadn't bothered to find out "WHY the person did" whatever it was that he was 'doing'. The implication is that child abuse wouldn't bother us if "only we learned WHY people abuse their children"....and that, if only we'd study the historical precedents for robbery (and the notion of private belongings), that we'd somehow come to terms with the burglars in our midst, intstead of 'demonizing' them.

These pieces on illegal immigration are no different. It's "our fault" it's happening, it's only an annoying problem because "we don't see the overall picture", and besides that, no one would have ANY objection to illegal immigration, if they weren't already predisposed to their feelings by racism, xenophobia, and 'anti-Hispanic' hysteria.

We might just as easily write a piece on "why the Sudan has never put a man on the moon"....or "why the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims could never get along together in Yugoslavia"....or "why The Taliban has never elected a woman to a leadership position"....or "why the Nazis never signed a peace treaty with the rest of Europe"....or "why Chinese haven't yet allowed much freedom of the press"..etc etc etc....and in every case, it would be "Why? That's EASY !!...it's because the USA wouldn't LET them, THAT'S why !....it's just too big, has too much influence, and interferes in too many things". In fact' I'm sure there are people on this forum who DO believe such things....but that doesn't make them true.

Huge, long-winded writings? Absolutely. They show a certain skill with a phrase. But are they relevant? No more so than any average 'short' piece, in my opinion.
Some great and cogent points in this post as usual...But the bold is what I have a difficult time reconciling...I just cant understand how we can be these selfish parochial global exceptionalists who project their worldview on foreign nations; WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY outsourcing more jobs than ever and borrowing more than ever before (meaning that we actually LOSE control over our own economic future and in many regards we lose control over our own culture.)...Does that not present an internal conflict?

Anywho, this laser like focus on noodling away at U.S. policy to justify illegal immigration doesnt really address WHY OUR elected officials arent ACTIVELY enforcing OUR own immigration laws. Our elected officials can discuss foreign policy and lending practices till their ears fell off. But they are still OBLIGATED to enforce our laws in the meantime. And if it was truly something that Americans wanted to reform, a vast overhaul of our foreign policies and lending policies would be a ballot initiative when our elected officials are campaigning...but they are not. which suggests to me that our lending institution is perfectly acceptable to most Americans.

I liken it to Americans complaining that China isnt lending us enough money and thus we deserve to flood their country with our scum; RATHER THAN taking an introspective evaluation of our own credit practices, extraneous spending, and failure to invest wisely/save which led to our economic meltdown. Fortunately U.S. citizens opted for the latter, and when we come out of this economic slump, we will largely still be in control of our own destiny for better or worse...as opposed to waiting for China to change their lending policies.

Much of what I hear spoken of here is that these third and first world (Mexico) countries should have some right to seek revenge upon America for past misfortunes and discretionary lending. I submit that those countries should quit using the U.S. as a crutch for their own ineptitude. I personally dont seek to live in an egalitarian society nor world. Though we are all created equal, where we finish in the world's rat race is largely contingent upon luck and aptitude. IMO The rest is just a matter of pity parties and scorn.
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Old 02-11-2010, 02:58 AM
 
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The man has a penchant for writing....no doubt about it. Yet in the end, there's been not a single mention of 'what to do' about illegal immigration that the average person could relate to..only a convoluted and vaguely-connected "tirade" against the entire American 'system', from the time of its founding, through its violent, abusive, and racist history, right up to the present day. The common thread running through ALL of it is that "we" (the average US citizen) could "do something" about illegal immigration if we ONLY...(changed our economy...changed our daily habits...changed the way we live...what we eat, what we buy....changed our xenophobia...opened our minds...and realized that the US is 'nothing special'...'got over ourselves'...lowered our expectations...etc etc etc etc.)

I've posted solutions before. It's not a tirade against the American system, rather a tirade against a brand of patriotism that is quite prevelant on this board. A brand that blindly follows an ethos centered on inequality and disparity. Those that adhere to this brand of patriotism essentially enable those in power to continue to maintain the current structure in place. They believe that the powerful are allies.

My family was a part of the "violent, abusive, history". Again, my grandfather's side has been here since the 1600s. We came here immediately following the Mayflower.

No, the US isn't anything special...in the sense of hyper exceptionalism. Yes, we do have to acknowledge that our daily habits do indeed affect others. Walmart patriots only understand consumption and hence has a limited world view.

A true patriot wants more than the status quo. A true patriot doesn't rest on their laurels.

Meanwhile, mention is NEVER made that the remotest possibility may exist that some of these illegals are victims of their OWN societies; nor that these other societies are responsible for their own internal problems...(ALL of their problems, apparently, being the result of what "we" (the US) have "done to them"...(loaned them money...NOT loaned them money...started wars...failed to STOP other wars....made THEM start wars...dealt with 'tyrants'...made people "do what they do",... fomented 'class envy',..."imposed" our culture upon them by force...and in every way, "interfered" with their societies).

I actually did mention that they are victims of their society. I aknowledge the corruption that exists. I did mention the rigid economic structure in other nations. However, I also stated that this is partly due to American influences. It's funny how you don't read the posts and claim to have a clear understanding of the convo. Clearly the bolded sentence indicates a lack of understanding. I stated that lending practices with strings attached has led to economic ruin in many nations. I also stated that debt forgiveness is a good way to spur an economy. If you are trying to make a point, at least keep it in context and actually ask questions of you don't understand.

It's an entirely one-sided philosophy remarkable ONLY for its length, verbosity, and volume...basically, all he's really saying is that "US society is flawed; it's evil; it benefits NO ONE without some selfish expectation of 'return'...The US has NEVER invited immigrants unless it's to exploit them, and the US is both, at the same time, one of the most xenophobic, smug, and inward-looking societies on earth, while simultaneously allowing its businessmen to roam the earth looking to exploit all other nations by virtue of our 'globalism'....and that there's no such place as 'The Third World', because all societies are equally good and progresive...but there IS a Third World, because that's what the US has grown rich by exploiting....and the US has never "lifted a finger" to help an immigrant, preferring to 'use' and mistreat them, and strip them of their cultures...and yet, apparently, people outside the US must be extraordinarily gullible, because immigrants continue to pour in, even today, so they can get in on the 'exploitation' of themselves...and they all LOVE their countries of origin, and the proud cultures therein...but they fight tooth, nail, and claw, and scream 'bloody murder' in order to avoid deparation, from here where we 'exploit' them, to back home where they're 'appreciated'.

Again, I didn't say ANY of the following in bold. I understand how superficial you are with your understanding of criticism. That's common with Walmart Patriots. Basically, you frame the debate in simple "right" and "wrong" terms. It's not that simple. The main premise is that there are some changes that need to be made. One being that people with a lack of understanding of how globalism works shouldn't insult those of different cultures. Not only that, but people need to take more into consideration and not solely frame debates in such monochromatic terms.

So are these impressive lengthy 'proclamations'..of course. The man, as I said, puts out an impressive number of words, in an impressive number of posts. But are they practical? No. Basically, they're all just an attempt to regularize the status of illegals by embarking on a paragraphs-long condemnation of the entire US system, history, and way of life, without allowing any comparisons with any other 'culprit'.

Ironically, you've posted more...posted longer posts. I love your claim of how people from the third world are tribal and how they don't understand western concepts. Your condescending, lack knowledge of other cultures, and lack reading comprehension apparently. That's okay though. It's a shame and an embarrassment (I love your claim that other multi-culturalism doesn't work, yet there are obvious examples all over the nations that refute this claim).

A verbose writer could do this on any subject. Imagine any crime or 'negative behavior' you want....from rape, murder, and mayhem...to malicious gossip, child abuse, burglary, jaywalking, or any of a thousand other occurrences. ANY such behavior could, if a writer wanted to, be laid at the feet of 'American society', and he could easily say "we (all of us) made the person do what he did"...and that his behavior annoyed..or outraged..or disturbed us, because we hadn't bothered to find out "WHY the person did" whatever it was that he was 'doing'. The implication is that child abuse wouldn't bother us if "only we learned WHY people abuse their children"....and that, if only we'd study the historical precedents for robbery (and the notion of private belongings), that we'd somehow come to terms with the burglars in our midst, intstead of 'demonizing' them.

You fail at analogies. It's so ridiculous, that you STILL compare illegal immigration to rape. Again, this demonstrates how little you understand of the topic. What else could I expect from a Walmart Patriot.

These pieces on illegal immigration are no different. It's "our fault" it's happening, it's only an annoying problem because "we don't see the overall picture", and besides that, no one would have ANY objection to illegal immigration, if they weren't already predisposed to their feelings by racism, xenophobia, and 'anti-Hispanic' hysteria.

I've posted solutions in the past. SEVERAL times actually. It's not that type of post. It's pointing out a segment of the population that relies on limited information that is based on American consumer culture (among other things) that have huge rammifications on policy. It's about the players in the illegal immigration debate. It's pretty obvious.

You claim Hispanics have a tribal mentality that want to take over and invade. You claim there is no assimilation, when assimilation is typically measured over generations (the date points to assimilation). I wouldn't put 'anti-Hispanic' hysteria in such a sarcastic context. We can only go by your posts...and they do show hysterics at times.

We might just as easily write a piece on "why the Sudan has never put a man on the moon"....or "why the Serbs, Croats, and Muslims could never get along together in Yugoslavia"....or "why The Taliban has never elected a woman to a leadership position"....or "why the Nazis never signed a peace treaty with the rest of Europe"....or "why Chinese haven't yet allowed much freedom of the press"..etc etc etc....and in every case, it would be "Why? That's EASY !!...it's because the USA wouldn't LET them, THAT'S why !....it's just too big, has too much influence, and interferes in too many things". In fact' I'm sure there are people on this forum who DO believe such things....but that doesn't make them true.

Again, if you have questions ask. At least try to stay on topic and not go wildly off into tangents that are beyond the scope of what you are trying to critique. That's as if I were to say that you were anti-Semetic, anti-Babies, anti-people for making the points you made. It doesn't make sense to go and attack points that don't exist.

Huge, long-winded writings? Absolutely. They show a certain skill with a phrase. But are they relevant? No more so than any average 'short' piece, in my opinion

Quite relevant considering the type of people on this board writing and making my mother cry (PS when's the explanation)?
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:00 AM
 
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If you can't take a critical look at your nation, then you really aren't a part of the solution...but rather you ARE the problem.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tulani View Post
I totally agree with this last bit. His posts are very well written and informative.
However, I stopped reading them because he refuses to quote who said what. Quoting does help one follow the conversation a lot better than just pulling apart someone's post and answering within that post.
His words of wisdom are falling on blind eyes that don't want to wade through the mess that he calls posting.
That's just how it is.
You can read up the information from the Pew Hispanic Center (where most of the demographic information is found), Tim Wise, Prof. Winant UCSB, Immigrant America: a protrait (Alejandro Portes, Rubén G. Rumbaut), various other sociological studies (mostly from UCR and UCSB), a special thanks from my former roomate studying race relations at UCI (Phd student in sociology)...

You can look at Jstor and find several studies. I have posted many work cited pages in WAY earlier posts...but to be perfectly honest a good percentage of info came from lectures and obscure sociological texts.

The information is out there...if you so desire to look.
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Old 02-11-2010, 03:51 AM
 
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Yes you did..thank you...but is this not our objective? we arent with anyone else except our NATO allies...

I'm more referring to segments within the American population. So NATO wouldn't really pertain into this discussion.

This is true, and I noted such to myself as I was writing my response...You did not use Hispanics and illegal immigration as an interchangeable demographic...you'll have to understand that because I dont concern myself with the issue of stereotypes, doesnt mean I dont care...I am simply stating that I filter those who DO stereotype out from my common particular opinion...a way of distancing in that particular aspect.

No, I understand that YOU personally may or may not concern yourself with stereotypes, however it doesn't negate the fact that stereotypes are quite prevelant. For example the more Anglo sounding name you put on a resume, the better you chances of getting hired in general. Cultural stereotypes abound. On this subforum, there is MUCH evidence of this. Even if you distance yourself, it still may be percieved as a permissive stance. Simply distancing yourself mean you condemn their actions.

But Washington D.C. doesnt have the sole authority to make lending policy..yet the WB has to be located somewhere so it is internationally consented that it be located in DC...and if that is the main quandary to lending policies of the U.S., then we can simply move the lending institutions to another country...Yet I have a feeling that even that wont change the influx of illegal immigrants to the United States....We dictate most of the lending because we lend the most, by far...however we, alone, dont dictate where those funds are allocated.

You are right, we don't have sole authority. Increasingly, due to the massive debt burden we have, our hegemony is diminishing. With that said, our plans still carry weight in lending circles. For example, reforms in Haiti from the IMF (which called for reduction of protective tarrifs) led to massive food shortages in Haiti. American rice was sold cheaper than the Haitian rice, thus causing farmers to lose their way of sustaining a living. However, the global price of rice rose as demand increased globally. Thus, the Haitians were in a position where they were worse off than before. American interests beat out the knowledge of the gov't concerning it's local economy. We may not allocate ALL the funds and dictate ALL the terms, but we have significant weight.

Would removing strings attached instill any understanding of debt obligation?...I dont see how lending is anymore adversely effecting Mexico, or Venezuela etc. than it effects other nations who simply arent responsible with their spending. Mexico seems to be quite a rich nation comparably to other economically stratified nations, yet its govt is only recently beginning to make attempts to end cronyism and corruption. Even today many members of its governing body, are residual of its old corrupt system. Until they fix their own corruption, I bid that we allow them to improve themselves before we

Removal of HARMFUL strings would help. Again, the same strings attached to the $24 million loan to Haiti in the late 1980s led to massive food shortages. In Jamaica, opening the market led to massive unemployment in the nation...simply due to the strings attached to IMF loans. Mexico is a richer nation due to history, natural resources, and proximity to the United States. The history of Mexico, specifically the Mexican revolution, shows attempt after attempt to end cronyism and corruption. The rallying cry against Porfiro Diaz in the early 1900s is a testament that Mexico has tried to end stratification. However, a history of corruption as well as a various pressures from the part of Americans have impede any possible reforms that could have occurred. It's not solely their fault, we have propped and supported corrupt regimes of our southern neighbor.

My point exactly...though I was unaware of this bill, its passage only reiterates the fact that American govt. is prioritizing the welfare of other nations on the same plane as our own. I dont know the particulars but I dont see how PEMEX would enable Mexico to stay solvent when its passage did not allow for private Mexican oil companies to reap the same profits as PEMEX itself..Instead, my understanding is that it benefits foreign drillers more than Mexico. How will that help grow Mexico's own economy.

PEMEX essentially puts money back into the gov't. The funds are, ideally, used towards services used by the general public. Most likely what would happen under full liberalization and privitization is that foreign bids may take over PEMEX and the majority of funds would repatriate back to the countries of origin (kind of like how Nestle heavily invests in small farm co-ops in Africa, only to repatriate profits to Europe). So while in an ideal situation PEMEX would remain a private, Mexican owned company (with all profits contributing to the national economy), the reality may not reflect this (or it may, only time will tell).

I understand what exceptionalism is...but my point is that I dont see how we can know what's best abroad, or have the best philosophy, when we seek to expand our powers beyond our shores while respecting the govt. philosophies of other nations. For instance, I dont understand how we can instill our own brand of capitalism in Mexico by investing in their economy, when we equally respect the fact that their nation's wealthy/govt. abuses its power...are those not conflicts of interests to some degree?

We don't respect gov't philosphies of other nations. Hence why we have predator drones in Pakistan. Hence why we invade nation after nation without investing in projects that will change the nation. Hence why our credo for African nations is that they should just stop having sex (abstinence only programs getting MORE funding under Bush). We really don't respect a good portion of the world. We are the hegemony, (though in the past several weeks this has slightly changed with China getting mad at the US and waving our debt in our face). We simply turn a blind eye to the abuses of power in most cases when dealing with the 3rd world.

I understand, and the information presented is enlightenment for me. I dont know all of the ins and outs of the U.S. - Mexico trade policy. But imo, the fact that the United States purchases most of Mexico's exports (as our own exports decline) indicates that we are already doing more than our part to strengthen Mexico's economy. I would even say that our immigration laws, combined with our trade practices actually compensate for an economy that we arent obligated to fix.

We do bear some responsibility for Mexico's economic problems. Not only on a historical level, but currently as well. Our maquilladora's pay below poverty wages and have created environmental harm in the areas where many of these factories sit. Not to mention, again, our lending policies to Mexico. When dealing with raw materials in Mexico, we get the better end of that deal.

I mean technically, the U.S. could sit around pouting about the fact that Mexico didnt support its invasion of Iraq, and barely contributed troops to its undertaking. But their foreign policy is their foreign policy, and their minimal role doesnt give bitter U.S. citizens the right to flood their country with our impoverished. Since policy is directly correlated to law, then our laws have already reinforced the establishment of our policy foreign and domestic. I simply wish the U.S. would enforce its own law.

Please clarify how not supporting the Iraqi invasion has any bearing on immigration policy. I don't have the quotation you are referencing in front of me. I will say that our immigration laws need to be changed in order to benefit both parties. Like the prison game states (in game theory and stats) mutual cooperation yields the best results.

In the end I really think that mixing principals with policy is impractical for the objective of securing our borders.

Yet, this is the stance the Walmart Patriot takes. The whole illegal immigration is tantamount to rape argument for deportation mixes principals with policy.

Changing policies to further assist other nations and subsequently insulate this one from their ire/illegal immigrants, is something that I think is unsustainable and non beneficial for America in the long run. Changing our policies, at this juncture, would no doubt placate its beneficiaries. (Mexico, Haiti etc.) However, for the U.S. it would essentially be bartering for and buying our freedom and respect for our set laws, in return for their compliance. We arent the worlds benefactors, nor are we obligated to be. And I dont think it in this nation's best interest to compromise its principles behind its laws for politically and diplomacy driven policy.

It would actually include the US more into the world rather than insulate. Closing the borders and deportation would insulate the US further. Creating the mentality that the US is a scared Vahala fit for those with money. Obviously there is a middle ground. That's all I'm advocating. Instead of deportation or completely open borders, I feel that there is some middle ground that can be achieved. I've proposed several ideas on this subforum before. No, we aren't the world's benefactor...however we shouldn't also be the world's dictator.
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Old 02-11-2010, 04:19 AM
 
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Some great and cogent points in this post as usual...But the bold is what I have a difficult time reconciling...I just cant understand how we can be these selfish parochial global exceptionalists who project their worldview on foreign nations; WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY outsourcing more jobs than ever and borrowing more than ever before (meaning that we actually LOSE control over our own economic future and in many regards we lose control over our own culture.)...Does that not present an internal conflict?

No it doesn't present an internal conflict in the least.

Company A is headed by Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith is in the top .5% of earners in this nation. Smith finds out that if he moves manufacturing to India, he'll save millions over the course of a few years. The stock price of A will rise. Thus, his shareholders agree that moving to India is a great idea. Mr. Smith, obviously, is a capitalist (otherwise why else would he own company A). Capitalism is a core belief of American society (hey, I like capitalism too). Mr. Smith believes that he achieved all he did by the sweat of his brow (the whole rags to riches mythology). His worldview is centered on this VERY American mythology. He justifies exporting labor by this mythology. Mr. Smith is anti-union (as most biz owners are). He aligns himself politically with the party (or candidates) that represents his ideals. In order to justify lower wages to his employees, the candidates and him subscribe to the idea that the "other" (before it was Blacks and Asians...depending on what part of the nation you lived in...now it's illegal immigrants) are "stealing" jobs and reducing wages. The truth of the matter is that company A wanted to raise it's stock and gain Mr. Smith an extra home in the Hamptons. He maintains and even exports his values abroad (via outsourcing) while essentially pandering to others (think the corporate sponsored tea-baggers). Those people who subscribe to what Mr. Smith say...are the quitissential Walmart Patriots.

Anywho, this laser like focus on noodling away at U.S. policy to justify illegal immigration doesnt really address WHY OUR elected officials arent ACTIVELY enforcing OUR own immigration laws. Our elected officials can discuss foreign policy and lending practices till their ears fell off. But they are still OBLIGATED to enforce our laws in the meantime. And if it was truly something that Americans wanted to reform, a vast overhaul of our foreign policies and lending policies would be a ballot initiative when our elected officials are campaigning...but they are not. which suggests to me that our lending institution is perfectly acceptable to most Americans.

It's not entirely a justification. It's more presenting the argument that is missing on this board. Our immigration laws obviously are not good for business here in the US or good for the immigrants abroad. We need reform. Most Americans have no clue about foreign issues (let alone lending practices abroad). Again, relying solely on the masses (such as we did to go into Iraq) is not always a good idea...the masses don't always know.

I liken it to Americans complaining that China isnt lending us enough money and thus we deserve to flood their country with our scum; RATHER THAN taking an introspective evaluation of our own credit practices, extraneous spending, and failure to invest wisely/save which led to our economic meltdown. Fortunately U.S. citizens opted for the latter, and when we come out of this economic slump, we will largely still be in control of our own destiny for better or worse...as opposed to waiting for China to change their lending policies.

Didn't say America isn't lending enough. This analogy doesn't work on SEVERAL levels. First off, America is a first world nation. We have resources, more so than China. Secondly, we can do serious economic harm to China. One tiny example is how foreign companies became reluctant to invest after Google threatened to pull out. America has been the bellweather of foreign investment in China. What we do usually is followed by other nations. Thirdly, the money we borrowed from China doesn't contain strings that have destroyed basic needs such as food production or increased stratification. This goes back to the first point. Sicne we are a wealthy nation, we can dictate the terms of lending better. Also the reasons for obtaining loans is QUITE different (poorer nations typically want loans to jumpstart development and get out of poverty...whereas America borrowed to retain it's hegemony).

Poorer nations have suffered due to lending practices. It's a common criticism.

Much of what I hear spoken of here is that these third and first world (Mexico) countries should have some right to seek revenge upon America for past misfortunes and discretionary lending. I submit that those countries should quit using the U.S. as a crutch for their own ineptitude. I personally dont seek to live in an egalitarian society nor world. Though we are all created equal, where we finish in the world's rat race is largely contingent upon luck and aptitude. IMO The rest is just a matter of pity parties and scorn.

Revenge and wanting parity are two different things. The third world doesn't want a pity party, but rather wants respect. They don't want to subscribe to the idea of American exceptionalism abroad. How and where we finish isn't a matter of luck...we did A LOT to get to our position. Some of those things are less than savory.
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