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Old 02-16-2010, 09:18 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,089,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Obviously; 'herding' is working since the death toll of illegal aliens is increasing due to them being forced through inhospitable areas i.e. deserts. Think of a 'passive' death strip along our southern border.
One source is actually due to the rise in violence on the border areas...not so much the fence.

As for punative only measures working...obviously they won't. A war of attrition on ideas never works. We've seen this with prohibition, the war on drugs, and now the war on terror and illegal immigration. You need positive reinforcement of behaviors that coincide with what you want to occur (winning the hearts and minds)...in this case, you need to address the needs and concerns of both sides. Otherwise you'll have the continuation what has been going on, or you'll have an overinflated budget (like the current US military budget).
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,696,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
One source is actually due to the rise in violence on the border areas...not so much the fence.

As for punative only measures working...obviously they won't. A war of attrition on ideas never works. We've seen this with prohibition, the war on drugs, and now the war on terror and illegal immigration. You need positive reinforcement of behaviors that coincide with what you want to occur (winning the hearts and minds)...in this case, you need to address the needs and concerns of both sides. Otherwise you'll have the continuation what has been going on, or you'll have an overinflated budget (like the current US military budget).
Anyway you spin it: the party is over for illegal aliens. They need to return home like dutiful children or risk severe punishment here in the USA.

Back on topic: use our military to close/lock our southern border; the heck with this virtual fence nonsense. Problem solved
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:27 PM
 
25 posts, read 26,448 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Anyway you spin it: the party is over for illegal aliens. They need to return home like dutiful children or risk severe punishment here in the USA.

Back on topic: use our military to close/lock our southern border; the heck with this virtual fence nonsense. Problem solved

Shouldn't we respect our own federal laws with respect to putting military on the border? What about the Posse Comitatus Act? I suppose if we declare war on Mexico, it would be ok. Hell, we sent Gen. Zachary Taylor to Mexico City to force them to sell Texas to us or else. Otherwise, we might be able to legally only put the Coast Guard on the southern border. If our history tells us anything though, we can do whatever we want to whomever we want and call it legal and moral. Pat Robertson will bless it. Amen?
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:31 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,089,962 times
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Anyway you spin it: the party is over for illegal aliens. They need to return home like dutiful children or risk severe punishment here in the USA.

If we have learned anything from history, we know that once the economy rebounds, we should see an increased amount of illegal immigrants. The Great Depression saw a decrease of illegal immigrants, relative to the 1920s. Then an increase in the 1940s and 1950s. A decrease in the 1970s and a massive increase in the 1990s. There is an ebb and flow relative to the economy. Hence why we need to find alternative pathways to legalization and also expand H-2A and H-2B (ease access and also lift certain restrictions).

Back on topic: use our military to close/lock our southern border; the heck with this virtual fence nonsense. Problem solved

With our nearly trillion dollar military budget, that is a horrible idea. We already consist of nearly 50% of the WORLD'S entire military spending. We need to decrease military spending. We seriously need to consider where funds go. This is a good example of poor planning.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:35 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,089,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specultr View Post
Shouldn't we respect our own federal laws with respect to putting military on the border? What about the Posse Comitatus Act? I suppose if we declare war on Mexico, it would be ok. Hell, we sent Gen. Zachary Taylor to Mexico City to force them to sell Texas to us or else. Otherwise, we might be able to legally only put the Coast Guard on the southern border. If our history tells us anything though, we can do whatever we want to whomever we want and call it legal and moral. Pat Robertson will bless it. Amen?
That's a good point too...I didn't even bother to think about the Posse Comitatus Act.
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:27 AM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,097,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I want to say yes: E Germany built a ca. 800 mile barrier along the W German border and some to the terrain was rough so it would be feasible to do the same here.
with one slight difference, that fence was built to keep people IN...and E. Germans knew that if they approached the fence they would be shot dead.

No warning shot, no arrest and trial...just execution for wanting freedom.
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Old 02-17-2010, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,696,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by specultr View Post
Shouldn't we respect our own federal laws with respect to putting military on the border? What about the Posse Comitatus Act? I suppose if we declare war on Mexico, it would be ok. Hell, we sent Gen. Zachary Taylor to Mexico City to force them to sell Texas to us or else. Otherwise, we might be able to legally only put the Coast Guard on the southern border. If our history tells us anything though, we can do whatever we want to whomever we want and call it legal and moral. Pat Robertson will bless it. Amen?
I see no legal issue here: illegal aliens are indeed a species of 'invader' so using our military would be appropriate to secure our southern border.

Besides: during the Civil Rights era riots of another era; the National Guard was indeed deployed----------against US citizens.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:36 AM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,097,346 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
I see no legal issue here: illegal aliens are indeed a species of 'invader' so using our military would be appropriate to secure our southern border.

Besides: during the Civil Rights era riots of another era; the National Guard was indeed deployed----------against US citizens.
The Military has recently been on the Border Protection, do you remember to what outcome?

Let me Remind the Forum-




18-Yeer Old Texan, Hearding Goats, Killed by U.S. Marine Corps Anti-Drug Patrol; Criminal Investigation of Shooting Underway

July 1997

</H2>On May 20, eighteen-year-old high school student Esequiel Hernandez Jr. was shot and killed near his house by the leader of a U.S. Marine Corps patrol on an anti-drug operation near the U.S.-Mexico border in Redford, Texas. Hernandez was tending goats about a mile from his home when the shooting occurred. The incident is the first time that military forces on anti-drug duty have shot and killed a U.S. citizen. After the incident, border patrol activities by the military were suspended (Thaddeus Herrick, "Marine on anti-drug duty shoots, kills student," Houston Chronicle, May 22, 1997, p. 37A; "Border Drug Patrols Are Halted After Killing," New York Times, July 11, 1997, p. A17).

http://www.ndsn.org/july97/goats.html
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,696,242 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
The Military has recently been on the Border Protection, do you remember to what outcome?

Let me Remind the Forum-





<H2>18-Year Old Texan, Herding Goats, Killed by U.S. Marine Corps Anti-Drug Patrol; Criminal Investigation of Shooting Underway

LAW ENFORCEMENT

July 1997

</H2>On May 20, eighteen-year-old high school student Esequiel Hernandez Jr. was shot and killed near his house by the leader of a U.S. Marine Corps patrol on an anti-drug operation near the U.S.-Mexico border in Redford, Texas. Hernandez was tending goats about a mile from his home when the shooting occurred. The incident is the first time that military forces on anti-drug duty have shot and killed a U.S. citizen. After the incident, border patrol activities by the military were suspended (Thaddeus Herrick, "Marine on anti-drug duty shoots, kills student," Houston Chronicle, May 22, 1997, p. 37A; "Border Drug Patrols Are Halted After Killing," New York Times, July 11, 1997, p. A17).
As long as justice was served concerning Hernandez; his death is not an acceptable reason to not use our military to secure our border.
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:45 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,958 posts, read 30,215,777 times
Reputation: 17764
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
with one slight difference, that fence was built to keep people IN...and E. Germans knew that if they approached the fence they would be shot dead.

No warning shot, no arrest and trial...just execution for wanting freedom.
I don't think Mexicans are being shot My Mexican officials for trying to cross. It's quite the opposite, they get escorted, given maps, water and information on how to start using social services pronto so they may quickly find a job under the table or with stolen ss#s to send back remittances which boost the Mexican economy. Ditto for Guatemala.


Putting the guard on the border was one of the best things they could have done. They should have been armed though.
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