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Old 02-22-2010, 05:32 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,081,552 times
Reputation: 2244

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can you explain to getout what EL means then.

dont get me wrong. i agree with you. i just want to make sure that these slower kids stay in their classes until they are at the same speed my kids are. thats why i think they are keeping some of the EL teachers. if they cut EL teachers then they would mix up all the kids, that would be like eliminating special education teachers and putting all those kids in regualr classes.

in the end, i dont want ANY teachers dismissed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I know what "English learners" means and yes I think that English immersion is the best course. But I still object to spreading our resources teaching them English at our expense either way when most of them are illegal aliens and shouldn't even be in our schools.
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Old 02-22-2010, 05:40 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,140,508 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opyelie View Post
Yes, I'm afraid getout is incorrect in his assumptions - the teachers that will be retained ahead of others are those with certifications to teach those students/classes for which English is not their primary language..........now whether that is fair or not is a whole other argument
Teachers certified to teach “English learners” will be saved before those who aren’t — about a quarter of the district’s students speak English as their second language.

Accepting that comprehension is asking me to believe that regular English teachers will go before bilingual teachers because 1/4 of the district is bilingual? I just don't buy it.

Last edited by getout; 02-22-2010 at 05:53 PM..
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Old 02-22-2010, 05:47 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,140,508 times
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If I AM wrong about what EL is, I truly apologize...and would wish I had never posted this thread

Gotta give me credit, I will believe until proven wrong, and will graciously concede...

EDIT: Yup, yup...I was wrong, apologies to the one and the forum for the confusion.

Ok, new approach...Thumbs down for this practice!
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Old 02-22-2010, 05:58 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,081,552 times
Reputation: 2244
apology accepted.

thats why i was genuinely confused. i really was, particularly given your previous comments.

so we take this as a learning experience and we let this die, but we can still discuss the reality that bilingual ed is [somewhat]left in tact.

i have mixed ideas on this. on the one had i dont want those kids in my kids classes, on the other hand i dont want my kid to have less resources because of those kids.

budget cuts like these are a choice between a kick in the a$$ and a kick in the ball$

Quote:
Originally Posted by getout View Post
If I AM wrong about what EL is, I truly apologize...and would wish I had never posted this thread

Gotta give me credit, I will believe until proven wrong, and will graciously concede...

EDIT: Yup, yup...I was wrong, apologies to the one and the forum for the confusion.

Ok, new approach...Thumbs down for this practice!
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Old 02-22-2010, 05:59 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,826 posts, read 30,110,492 times
Reputation: 17698
Quote:
Originally Posted by getout View Post
If I AM wrong about what EL is, I truly apologize...and would wish I had never posted this thread

Gotta give me credit, I will believe until proven wrong, and will graciously concede...
Unfortunately they like to word these pieces to smooth the wrinkles of what is really happening, back door immigration.

English Teachers are being dumped in favor of those that can also translate, usually in Spanish to English. It doesn't matter how proficient a Teacher they are they are trying to kill two birds with one stone and cover the new Democratic voter base while still teaching in English. They see the interpreter option as a bonus.

This is how it works. The Teacher is forced to cull the esl students from each class and provide "extra" attention since the school's grades are based on overall performance. You and I, the tax payers, get to have our English speaking kids performance throttled because the Teachers are too busy trying to bring the "mostly Spanish as a 1st language" kids up to par.

This is one of the biggest hits we Citizens take in the school arena. Our kids are being looked past so that the Spanish speaking kids of Illegal Immigrants get special attention.

Makes one feel warm and fuzzy knowing the kids law breaking Parents get a free ride for their kids while we have two choices, take it or put our kids in private school. As far as I am concerned these Illegal Aliens can hire a tutor or learn English themselves vs sucking on the tax payer teat for these social services.
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:10 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,081,552 times
Reputation: 2244
you are pretty mistaken.

class placement is based on standardized testing.

the esl, led, elp, etc etc teachers dont gather kids from anywhere. they are designated based on testing. the hope is that they will test out after a couple years.

the previous system of bilingual ed had them in those tracks for years. now the push is to move kids into regular classes.

as parents we have many choices.
i dont put my kids in private school, i keep them at our local school (we are LAUSD). and their performance is helped by having no EL kids in their class. class progression would be hindered by the teacher spending time with a couple of EL kids. this way those EL kids have their own special classes, sort of like special ed. it helps in the long run. the problem historically has been that some kids stay in these classes too long and dont proceed to english proficient classes. they are working that out. let them tweak with that. dont mess with my kids education.

not only am i a tax payer, im also a parent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Unfortunately they like to word these pieces to smooth the wrinkles of what is really happening, back door immigration.

English Teachers are being dumped in favor of those that can also translate, usually in Spanish to English. It doesn't matter how proficient a Teacher they are they are trying to kill two birds with one stone and cover the new Democratic voter base while still teaching in English. They see the interpreter option as a bonus.

This is how it works. The Teacher is forced to cull the esl students from each class and provide "extra" attention since the school's grades are based on overall performance. You and I, the tax payers, get to have our English speaking kids performance throttled because the Teachers are too busy trying to bring the "mostly Spanish as a 1st language" kids up to par.

This is one of the biggest hits we Citizens take in the school arena. Our kids are being looked past so that the Spanish speaking kids of Illegal Immigrants get special attention.

Makes one feel warm and fuzzy knowing the kids law breaking Parents get a free ride for their kids while we have two choices, take it or put our kids in private school. As far as I am concerned these Illegal Aliens can hire a tutor or learn English themselves vs sucking on the tax payer teat for these social services.
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:22 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,826 posts, read 30,110,492 times
Reputation: 17698
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
you are pretty mistaken.

class placement is based on standardized testing.

the esl, led, elp, etc etc teachers dont gather kids from anywhere. they are designated based on testing. the hope is that they will test out after a couple years.

the previous system of bilingual ed had them in those tracks for years. now the push is to move kids into regular classes.

as parents we have many choices.
i dont put my kids in private school, i keep them at our local school (we are LAUSD). and their performance is helped by having no EL kids in their class. class progression would be hindered by the teacher spending time with a couple of EL kids. this way those EL kids have their own special classes, sort of like special ed. it helps in the long run. the problem historically has been that some kids stay in these classes too long and dont proceed to english proficient classes. they are working that out. let them tweak with that. dont mess with my kids education.

not only am i a tax payer, im also a parent.
Two different things here. ESL ENGLISH classes and every other class that has kids that struggle with English.
They don't have a designation as a ESL student they just plain are. They are culled from the rest of the class each day because their progress is hindered by the fact that they cannot read or speak English as well as the rest of the students. Some of these kids are bright kids but they can't stay with everyone else as it is hard for them to understand the work given to them. Mixed in with these English "strugglers" are kids that have other struggles trying to keep up but the Spanish as primary language speakers are always the majority. The rest of the kids take the hit on this as the Teacher isn't as available as they should be. I've seen it every year in every class I've volunteered my time in.

I'm not talking ESL classes. These kids are mixed in with the rest of the kids in EACH class. It's not English class that is the problem it's EVERY class that is the problem because the don't speak or understand it well.

THIS is messing with MY kid's education. It's pretty clear in the article, "Teachers certified to teach “English learners” will be saved before those who aren’t — about a quarter of the district’s students speak English as their second language."

It sounds like these "interpreters" are being kept over someone who Teaches in English. I hope they sue over it too. Speaking another language should be a plus, not a deciding factor on the job position unless it specifically states they must Teach in more than one language. If so I hope they all speak Mandarin and still sue as it's coddling the Illegals.

How is the letter going to read to the Parents? Don't worry you Mexican and Guatemalan Illegal Aliens. If we have to fire Teachers that can't teach your Spanish speaking kids then we'll do what we have to do. That's how I read it.

Last edited by 1AngryTaxPayer; 02-22-2010 at 06:32 PM..
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:33 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,081,552 times
Reputation: 2244
what? we are talking about ESL or EL as it is now known. the kids are kept seperate. they have their own classes. it might be differentelsewhere, but form my understanding we are asked what the childs primary language or home language is. they are then given tests to see where they fall. there are different categories. this is LAUSD, which might be ahead of other districts in enlgish learner curriculums.

what do you mean by "culled", data is culled from reports. do you mean that they pull these kids out of class every day? they are selected from the larger population? please explain.

further i think your problem would be with learning classification. essentially your saying that there are students in classes that shouldnt be in those classes. i.e. if a kid was in a math class ahead of his skills. and that these "strugglers" take time away from other students. is that what you are saying?


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
Two different things here. ESL ENGLISH classes and every other class that has kids that struggle with English.
They don't have a designation as a ESL student they just plain are. They are culled from the rest of the class each day because their progress is hindered by the fact that they cannot read or speak English as well as the rest of the students. Some of these kids are bright kids but they can't stay with everyone else as it is hard for them to understand the work given to them. Mixed in with these English "strugglers" are kids that have other struggles trying to keep up but the Spanish as primary language speakers are always the majority. The rest of the kids take the hit on this as the Teacher isn't as available as they should be. I've seen it every year in every class I've volunteered my time in.

I'm not talking ESL classes. These kids are mixed in with the rest of the kids in EACH class. It's not English class that is the problem it's EVERY class that is the problem because the don't speak or understand it well.

THIS is messing with MY kid's education.
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:41 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,826 posts, read 30,110,492 times
Reputation: 17698
Quote:
Originally Posted by the one View Post
what? we are talking about ESL or EL as it is now known. the kids are kept seperate. they have their own classes. it might be differentelsewhere, but form my understanding we are asked what the childs primary language or home language is. they are then given tests to see where they fall. there are different categories. this is LAUSD, which might be ahead of other districts in enlgish learner curriculums.

what do you mean by "culled", data is culled from reports. do you mean that they pull these kids out of class every day? they are selected from the larger population? please explain.

further i think your problem would be with learning classification. essentially your saying that there are students in classes that shouldnt be in those classes. i.e. if a kid was in a math class ahead of his skills. and that these "strugglers" take time away from other students. is that what you are saying?
We don't have ESL "classes" where kids are separated except for English classes. In each class, every day the struggling Spanish (mostly) speakers are seated at a table in the same room as the rest of the kids and given direct supervision by the Teachers. There are also other kids at the table, some that need those machines to see the words due bad sight, etc but the majority of kids in each class that are "culled" from the herd so to speak are the ones struggling with English.

It would make a lot of sense to have the ESL kids in a private room for the entire day of learning so the other kids wouldn't suffer. That is not the case though, instead it brings the whole class down. I partially blame this on NCLB but I don't let the Illegals off the hook on this one. They don't speak English at home at it's apparent.
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Old 02-22-2010, 07:11 PM
 
Location: CITY OF ANGELS AND CONSTANT DANGER
5,409 posts, read 11,081,552 times
Reputation: 2244
interesting. very interesting. they probably do this because the population of foreigners [and their EL kids] is so small.

and i wouldnt blame illegals. its an immigrant thing. there are many immigrants, legal ones, who still struggle with english. its an evolutionary process. english development does not occur over night.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
We don't have ESL "classes" where kids are separated except for English classes. In each class, every day the struggling Spanish (mostly) speakers are seated at a table in the same room as the rest of the kids and given direct supervision by the Teachers. There are also other kids at the table, some that need those machines to see the words due bad sight, etc but the majority of kids in each class that are "culled" from the herd so to speak are the ones struggling with English.

It would make a lot of sense to have the ESL kids in a private room for the entire day of learning so the other kids wouldn't suffer. That is not the case though, instead it brings the whole class down. I partially blame this on NCLB but I don't let the Illegals off the hook on this one. They don't speak English at home at it's apparent.
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