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Old 03-01-2010, 03:35 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,848 posts, read 23,288,848 times
Reputation: 12238

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Good point. How do we know they are actually picking our crops, making our beds, cleaning our toilets, etc, etc? How indeed, do we know, when no one seems to even know “who” they are or “where” they are? Yet, we are to believe our economy would collapse without them. We are frequently told they pay millions of dollars in taxes. Again, how do we know?

The only point I am trying to make is that whenever it is discovered that a person is an illegal alien, they should be deported. In some jurisdictions, illegal aliens cannot be reported to ICE unless they are arrested for committing a violent crime. They can be guilty of burglary, car theft, and various other criminal activities, but if no “violent” act has been committed, they are free to remain in this country. This is wrong.
Agree with the bold.

Not sure if you'll remember this, it's from two years ago:
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
One time, I helped a guy (illegal immigrant), translate (my Spanish is about as good as his English) after he got in a car accident. The Highway Patrol came and they knew he wasn't legally allowed to be in the USA, but they didn't care, they let him and his friends leave with me (he was a co-worker). I even asked the patrolmen if as soon as I left, was I going to get pulled over for transporting illegals, and the patrolmen told me no. So there you go.
We can assume they pay sales taxes and property taxes (by proxy). Income taxes if they are illegally using someone else's SSN. The only way we'd know the effects of their absence, is if they were gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
If they are coming here primarily for jobs to feed their families back home, why does citizenship have to be part of the equation? Why won’t a work visa suffice? Moreover, most illegals have no desire to become U.S. citizens. They simply want to be granted permission to remain here without the fear of deportation. They don’t want to become “Americans” -- they just want the “American Dream.”
Many of the guys I knew:
1) wanted money to send back home to either feed their (extended) families, and/or build their mansions.
2) wanted their kids to have (free) education/health care/better lives for their kids/families

I'm not so sure citizenship was a huge priority.

There are ways that this can all be solved, your "imported poverty" argument notwithstanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Yes, the U.S. is no longer the Promised Land. If immigrants will not benefit this country, we don’t need them. It is our right as a sovereign nation.
I just wonder how places in the southwest would proceed/transition without them busing tables, picking crops, making beds, etc.

It'd be weird.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
For some, the answer is yes. For others, they are already taking crappy jobs to feed their families. Why is it understandable that out of sheer desperation illegal aliens are here doing crappy jobs, yet you can’t fathom the same for a U.S. citizen?
What I got out of your original statement was: "Americans only want to do crappy jobs if they have to. They won't lower themselves to it if they can still collect unemployment."

I disagree with this. I don't condone anybody sitting back and collecting a check when they could be working somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The study involved “immigrants.” Puerto Ricans are NOT immigrants.
This is why I brought up Puerto Ricans:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
and that 2 million "Americans" who were born in this country speak little or no English. What does that indicate?
Is that Puerto Ricans? Is that Spanish-speaking rural New Mexicans/Coloradans? Is it French-speaking Mainers, New Hampshirites, or Louisianans? Is it urban Los Angelinos?
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Old 03-01-2010, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Agree with the bold.

Not sure if you'll remember this, it's from two years ago:
No, I missed that post. Incredible!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Many of the guys I knew:
1) wanted money to send back home to either feed their (extended) families, and/or build their mansions.
2) wanted their kids to have (free) education/health care/better lives for their kids/families

I'm not so sure citizenship was a huge priority.

There are ways that this can all be solved, your "imported poverty" argument notwithstanding.
What would you propose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I just wonder how places in the southwest would proceed/transition without them busing tables, picking crops, making beds, etc.

It'd be weird.
Have you forgotten who performed those tasks prior to massive illegal immigration? Legal immigrants (green cards/visas), and U.S. citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
What I got out of your original statement was: "Americans only want to do crappy jobs if they have to. They won't lower themselves to it if they can still collect unemployment."

I disagree with this. I don't condone anybody sitting back and collecting a check when they could be working somewhere.
No, I didn’t say that. I said citizens will do those jobs out of desperation. Actually, who would want to clean toilets if they didn’t have to? I also don’t agree with citizens sitting around collecting unemployment benefits if they have the opportunity to work. However, I do believe once the benefits are exhausted, most will do whatever it takes to survive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
This is why I brought up Puerto Ricans:


Is that Puerto Ricans? Is that Spanish-speaking rural New Mexicans/Coloradans? Is it French-speaking Mainers, New Hampshirites, or Louisianans? Is it urban Los Angelinos?
I believe they are referring primarily to children born here to illegal alien parents, aka anchor babies.
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,848 posts, read 23,288,848 times
Reputation: 12238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
No, I missed that post. Incredible!
I thought you'd "like" that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
What would you propose?
A bi-partisan effort between Benicar and David Aguilar, with concessions from both sides.

But really, probably something like:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
who performed those tasks prior to massive illegal immigration? Legal immigrants (green cards/visas),
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
No, I didnít say that. I said citizens will do those jobs out of desperation. Actually, who would want to clean toilets if they didnít have to? I also donít agree with citizens sitting around collecting unemployment benefits if they have the opportunity to work. However, I do believe once the benefits are exhausted, most will do whatever it takes to survive.
I'd clean toilets to keep my pride (pride, being work-ethic). You get very little of that by sitting around and watching Maury all day.

I hear a lot of "I lost my job due to the economy" type comments. Can said person not work at McDonald's? Deliver pizza? Wait tables? Stack boxes at UPS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
I believe they are referring primarily to children born here to illegal alien parents, aka anchor babies.
I've known a lot of anchor babies, but I can't say I knew too many that couldn't speak English. If they are enrolled in school, they will learn English.

My elementary school was ~ 80%+ Latino, and about 1/3 of them didn't speak English upon entry into school. By the time 4th (or so) grade came around, they all knew English, and the exceptions that didn't were put in a "Special Ed" type class. -Just my experience
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:29 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,168,220 times
Reputation: 2130
Unless someone was working for minimum wage and got laid off that job most likely their umemployment is more than working a minimum wage job. So why would an American take a job that would pay less than their unemployment check?

If you think that a middle aged non-hispanic male or female can just walk right into McDonald's and get hired you aren't dealing in reality. Most of those jobs are sewn up by young Hispanics either legal or illegal and they hire the same because of the language barriers and because they want youthful employees. A serious reality check is in order here.
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,848 posts, read 23,288,848 times
Reputation: 12238
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Unless someone was working for minimum wage and got laid off that job most likely their umemployment is more than working a minimum wage job. So why would an American take a job that would pay less than their unemployment check?
IMO, unemployment should be a stopgap, not something you ride out until it ends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
If you think that a middle aged non-hispanic male or female can just walk right into McDonald's and get hired you aren't dealing in reality. Most of those jobs are sewn up by young Hispanics either legal or illegal and they hire the same because of the language barriers and because they want youthful employees. A serious reality check is in order here.
What a load of hooey. I'd love for you to visit the fast-food joints in my area. That Jack-In-The-Box offer is still on the table.
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:46 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,168,220 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
IMO, unemployment should be a stopgap, not something you ride out until it ends.



What a load of hooey. I'd love for you to visit the fast-food joints in my area. That Jack-In-The-Box offer is still on the table.
It wouldn't make sense for an American who has a mortgage payment, wife and kids to feed and other bills to pay to take a job that pays less than their employment check. Get real will you?

Where I live it is mostly young Hispanics working those fast food joints. So no, it isn't a load of hooey.
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,836,058 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
A bi-partisan effort between Benicar and David Aguilar, with concessions from both sides.


Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
But really, probably something like:
Admittedly, I donít have all of the solutions to our problem. I only know we canít continue along this path. We have untold millions living in this country illegally. As of the latest tally, they have given birth to 4 million children, who by virtue of being born on U.S. soil, are conferred citizenship. No country can sustain this level of intrusion.

If it is determined that we need more workers, I have no objection to work visas. However, there should not be one unemployed citizen who is willing to work, yet canít, because someone who has no right to be here has been given the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I'd clean toilets to keep my pride (pride, being work-ethic). You get very little of that by sitting around and watching Maury all day.

I hear a lot of "I lost my job due to the economy" type comments. Can said person not work at McDonald's? Deliver pizza? Wait tables? Stack boxes at UPS?
Youíll get no argument from me. I feel nothing but disdain for a slothful person. Again, I believe citizens will be willing to do whatever is necessary to put a roof over their family and food on the table. However, they should not have to compete against illegals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I've known a lot of anchor babies, but I can't say I knew too many that couldn't speak English. If they are enrolled in school, they will learn English.

My elementary school was ~ 80%+ Latino, and about 1/3 of them didn't speak English upon entry into school. By the time 4th (or so) grade came around, they all knew English, and the exceptions that didn't were put in a "Special Ed" type class. -Just my experience
I am also aware of illegals who speak fluent English. I donít know any anchors, so I canít comment on that. However, you asked for census data, and according to that info, we have an alarming number of ďimmigrantsĒ who do not speak English, including their US-born children.
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Old 03-01-2010, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,848 posts, read 23,288,848 times
Reputation: 12238
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
It wouldn't make sense for an American who has a mortgage payment, wife and kids to feed and other bills to pay to take a job that pays less than their employment check. Get real will you?
I guess you assume I've never been in the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Where I live it is mostly young Hispanics working those fast food joints. So no, it isn't a load of hooey.
Mostly isn't all, and we've got plenty of young Hispanics here too. Where do you live again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post


Admittedly, I donít have all of the solutions to our problem. I only know we canít continue along this path. We have untold millions living in this country illegally. As of the latest tally, they have given birth to 4 million children, who by virtue of being born on U.S. soil, are conferred citizenship. No country can sustain this level of intrusion.

If it is determined that we need more workers, I have no objection to work visas. However, there should not be one unemployed citizen who is willing to work, yet canít, because someone who has no right to be here has been given the job.

Youíll get no argument from me. I feel nothing but disdain for a slothful person. Again, I believe citizens will be willing to do whatever is necessary to put a roof over their family and food on the table. However, they should not have to compete against illegals.

I am also aware of illegals who speak fluent English. I donít know any anchors, so I canít comment on that. However, you asked for census data, and according to that info, we have an alarming number of ďimmigrantsĒ who do not speak English, including their US-born children.
I think we can call a truce now. You have given me what I was looking for out of this thread. Others, on the other hand.....
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:19 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,141,899 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
IMO, unemployment should be a stopgap, not something you ride out until it ends.



What a load of hooey. I'd love for you to visit the fast-food joints in my area. That Jack-In-The-Box offer is still on the table.
I'll have to side with chicagonut on this one, you must consider the area where one lives.

I, a native from a different state and can say, most McDonald's (2) in our small town employ local teens, seniors. As a visitor to Texas, I can't understand from the thick dialect through the speakers. Venturing inside, my order has been wrong, EVERY time. Even upon pointing it out, the "corrections" are wrong, then THEY cop an attitude. I no longer go to McDonald's in Texas. Went to an all you can eat joint. Asked the lady on the floor, what type of fish. She looked at me as though "I" was an alien and ran into the back room. I don't eat there anymore either. If they cannot understand simple English, how can I expect that establishment to understand health codes. Legal? Illegal? Who knows or cares. This is AMERICA, we speak ENGLISH. Assimilate.

Enough about that. Do you know how many are really unemployed? Searching? My husband gets calls EVERY day from seekers, friends all willing to relocate (as we have had to do) who HATE being on unemployment. (You think it is a lot of money? Try and sustain a household) Don't you think those on unemployment know that it will end? It is sad, really sad to see our fellow Americans, especially the construction industry taking this huge brunt of economical distress. Families who choose between their credit and food. House before insurance (which has been paid into for years to now have to be cancelled due to unaffordability) Don't anyone give me the crap about universal health care, politicians blah blah. Illegal alien hiring has devastated this country and crippled lives; some beyond repair. Grow up and wake up. Accuse me of being emotional, you bet I am. The pis*ed kind.
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:45 PM
 
3,951 posts, read 3,590,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Well, that didn't take long.

Chicagonut, everything isn't as rosy as you make it sound. It sounds so Mickey Mouse of you, to just assume that they can go back there and their hard work will pay off. Everything is controlled by a vast caste-societal complex, there is no such thing as a "Mexican Dream". For some, the "easy way out", is better than starving to death, or living a life in extreme poverty.

ArizonaBear, you'd have to reform Mexico's system for that to happen. Again, a pipe-dream. You assume that Mexico's "haves" have a reason to care about their underclass.
None of that is anyone else's fault though. US residents and citizens shouldn't have to take the negative effects of trying to save the day by turning the other cheek to illegal immigration.
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