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Old 02-23-2010, 10:49 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,094,408 times
Reputation: 822

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
chicagonut is correct and your implication that the Mexican peons are cowards pretty much confirms what she stated. Either said peons 'grow a pair' or will remain in de facto serfdom longer to the wealthy elite SoB.
Two words...reading comprehension. My implication Mexicans are cowards? Chinut stated that they simply jump over the border instead of wanting reform. That's cowardly. I stated that this isn't exactly the case. Which in turn means that they aren't cowardly.

Do you even read what you type?
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:33 AM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,856 posts, read 23,341,437 times
Reputation: 12283
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Two words...reading comprehension. My implication Mexicans are cowards? Chinut stated that they simply jump over the border instead of wanting reform. That's cowardly. I stated that this isn't exactly the case. Which in turn means that they aren't cowardly.

Do you even read what you type?
There appears to be a lot of jumping-to-conclusions on this forum. That's why I don't stick around long. They always pull things out of my posts that I'm not saying, which gives me little incentive to respond.

Every once in awhile, I check in here to see if intelligent debate is ever occurring. It never is. It's always the same unoriginal talking points. The same people. The same thumbs up, and happy faces directed in a spiteful way towards the illegal immigrants themselves, not towards the broken system we have that allows them to be here with little recourse.

Some live in a fantasy-land, expecting an American Revolution-type uprising out of people who are mostly poor peasants in their homeland. I don't think that's what many of our European ancestors did before they left Europe (for example)........

Others have little idea of what Mexico or her people are like. They are sheltered into thinking that Mexicans have it as good as us, or that they can. They don't, and they can't.

They can say it's about the illegal immigration, but I don't think it is entirely. I think it's more an attempt of self-preservation of mainstream American culture, an attempt to revert to how things were, or "oughta be". It's sad that some are so threatened by a class of what are largely poor people. It's sad that they actually think they have a dog in the fight, and that the words they spout off on here are actually making a difference, and that somebody is listening.

Even if all illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow, they'd still see things (and people) they didn't like around them, many of these "illegals" they complain about probably aren't even illegal. I can't tell the difference between a Mexican with a visa, and a Mexican that came illegally (and neither can they). They probably can't tell the difference between a US-born Mexican-American and a now grown-up person that was dragged across the border as a toddler. There's too much gray area for the displeasure to be directed appropriately.

Hoping to get rid of illegal immigrants is only the first step, what is the next one? It doesn't just end there. So we get rid of them, do cartwheels, throw a big party, and just close the book? Sounds pretty unlikely.

They can use the bad economy as a crutch, but they were here when the economy was good. So obviously the economic problems aren't their fault. The economy will be good again, and there will still be illegal immigrants here when it is.

So I'm going to sit here and wait for somebody to challenge me, and I'm going to wait for somebody to say I said something that I didn't, and I'm going to wait for the accusations, generalizations and assumptions.

And we'll see if I respond.
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Old 02-24-2010, 07:20 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,725,996 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
Two words...reading comprehension. My implication Mexicans are cowards? Chinut stated that they simply jump over the border instead of wanting reform. That's cowardly. I stated that this isn't exactly the case. Which in turn means that they aren't cowardly.

Do you even read what you type?
I stand by what I stated. You do you fair share of insinuations as well.

Just accept the fact that illegal aliens are criminals and more and more Americans want those losers gone from the USA.
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:12 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
There appears to be a lot of jumping-to-conclusions on this forum. That's why I don't stick around long. They always pull things out of my posts that I'm not saying, which gives me little incentive to respond.

Every once in awhile, I check in here to see if intelligent debate is ever occurring. It never is. It's always the same unoriginal talking points. The same people. The same thumbs up, and happy faces directed in a spiteful way towards the illegal immigrants themselves, not towards the broken system we have that allows them to be here with little recourse.

Some live in a fantasy-land, expecting an American Revolution-type uprising out of people who are mostly poor peasants in their homeland. I don't think that's what many of our European ancestors did before they left Europe (for example)........

Others have little idea of what Mexico or her people are like. They are sheltered into thinking that Mexicans have it as good as us, or that they can. They don't, and they can't.

They can say it's about the illegal immigration, but I don't think it is entirely. I think it's more an attempt of self-preservation of mainstream American culture, an attempt to revert to how things were, or "oughta be". It's sad that some are so threatened by a class of what are largely poor people. It's sad that they actually think they have a dog in the fight, and that the words they spout off on here are actually making a difference, and that somebody is listening.

Even if all illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow, they'd still see things (and people) they didn't like around them, many of these "illegals" they complain about probably aren't even illegal. I can't tell the difference between a Mexican with a visa, and a Mexican that came illegally (and neither can they). They probably can't tell the difference between a US-born Mexican-American and a now grown-up person that was dragged across the border as a toddler. There's too much gray area for the displeasure to be directed appropriately.

Hoping to get rid of illegal immigrants is only the first step, what is the next one? It doesn't just end there. So we get rid of them, do cartwheels, throw a big party, and just close the book? Sounds pretty unlikely.

They can use the bad economy as a crutch, but they were here when the economy was good. So obviously the economic problems aren't their fault. The economy will be good again, and there will still be illegal immigrants here when it is.

So I'm going to sit here and wait for somebody to challenge me, and I'm going to wait for somebody to say I said something that I didn't, and I'm going to wait for the accusations, generalizations and assumptions.

And we'll see if I respond.
I just have two remark to all of your statements and that is that you are incorrect on all of your summations of this whole issue and about those of us who want our immigration laws enforced. The fact that your views are attached, to a Hispanic surname is kind of to be expected.

Last edited by chicagonut; 02-24-2010 at 08:28 AM..
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Lake Norman, North Carolina
1,213 posts, read 1,402,043 times
Reputation: 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
There appears to be a lot of jumping-to-conclusions on this forum. That's why I don't stick around long. They always pull things out of my posts that I'm not saying, which gives me little incentive to respond.

Every once in awhile, I check in here to see if intelligent debate is ever occurring. It never is. It's always the same unoriginal talking points. The same people. The same thumbs up, and happy faces directed in a spiteful way towards the illegal immigrants themselves, not towards the broken system we have that allows them to be here with little recourse.

Some live in a fantasy-land, expecting an American Revolution-type uprising out of people who are mostly poor peasants in their homeland. I don't think that's what many of our European ancestors did before they left Europe (for example)........

Others have little idea of what Mexico or her people are like. They are sheltered into thinking that Mexicans have it as good as us, or that they can. They don't, and they can't.

They can say it's about the illegal immigration, but I don't think it is entirely. I think it's more an attempt of self-preservation of mainstream American culture, an attempt to revert to how things were, or "oughta be". It's sad that some are so threatened by a class of what are largely poor people. It's sad that they actually think they have a dog in the fight, and that the words they spout off on here are actually making a difference, and that somebody is listening.

Even if all illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow, they'd still see things (and people) they didn't like around them, many of these "illegals" they complain about probably aren't even illegal. I can't tell the difference between a Mexican with a visa, and a Mexican that came illegally (and neither can they). They probably can't tell the difference between a US-born Mexican-American and a now grown-up person that was dragged across the border as a toddler. There's too much gray area for the displeasure to be directed appropriately.

Hoping to get rid of illegal immigrants is only the first step, what is the next one? It doesn't just end there. So we get rid of them, do cartwheels, throw a big party, and just close the book? Sounds pretty unlikely.

They can use the bad economy as a crutch, but they were here when the economy was good. So obviously the economic problems aren't their fault. The economy will be good again, and there will still be illegal immigrants here when it is.

So I'm going to sit here and wait for somebody to challenge me, and I'm going to wait for somebody to say I said something that I didn't, and I'm going to wait for the accusations, generalizations and assumptions.

And we'll see if I respond.
Using your argument that the unwanted uninvited illegal aliens were here when the economy was good and the unemployment of American citizens was around 5%, then it naturally follows that now that the economy is bad and de facto unemployment of American citizens is around 17% then the unwanted uninvited illegal aliens need to get the hell out?
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,856 posts, read 23,341,437 times
Reputation: 12283
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I just have two remark to all of your statements and that is that you are incorrect on all of your summations of this whole issue and about those of us who want our immigration laws enforced. The fact that your views are attached, to a Hispanic surname is kind of to be expected.
Wow chicagonut, you have totally never taken this stance before.

Assumption #1, Generalization #1.

Really, this is weak (and tired).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roguer View Post
Using your argument that the unwanted uninvited illegal aliens were here when the economy was good and the unemployment of American citizens was around 5%, then it naturally follows that now that the economy is bad and de facto unemployment of American citizens is around 17% then the unwanted uninvited illegal aliens need to get the hell out?
Uh, sure. But good luck on forcing them to. By the time you'd be able to get them all out, it's likely the economy would have been long recovered by then.

All, I'm just trying to be realistic here. Your far-fetched ideas of a mass deportation occurring are simply illogical. There's no way Washington wants another "trail of tears" type scenario on its hands, even if it does involve foreign nationals.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:06 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Wow chicagonut, you have totally never taken this stance before.

Assumption #1, Generalization #1.

Really, this is weak (and tired).



Uh, sure. But good luck on forcing them to. By the time you'd be able to get them all out, it's likely the economy would have been long recovered by then.

All, I'm just trying to be realistic here. Your far-fetched ideas of a mass deportation occurring are simply illogical. There's no way Washington wants another "trail of tears" type scenario on its hands, even if it does involve foreign nationals.
No assumption at all in my first sentence. My reply was based on "your" assumption of us anti's. What you call generalization in my second sentence is based on the majority responses and views of most Hispanics on this issue starting with yours for example.

So making illegal aliens self-deport or even forced deportations is akin to the "Trail of Tears"? Can I assume that you think that our country has no right to immigration laws and sovereign borders then and of course that would have to apply to ALL countries then to be fair, right?
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Denver
9,077 posts, read 15,528,115 times
Reputation: 5299
These sort of comments really stifle any other view and is quite typical on this forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I just have two remark to all of your statements and that is that you are incorrect on all of your summations of this whole issue and about those of us who want our immigration laws enforced. The fact that your views are attached, to a Hispanic surname is kind of to be expected.

David you pretty much nailed this forum in the quote below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar
Every once in awhile, I check in here to see if intelligent debate is ever occurring. It never is. It's always the same unoriginal talking points. The same people. The same thumbs up, and happy faces directed in a spiteful way towards the illegal immigrants themselves, not towards the broken system we have that allows them to be here with little recourse.
I personally think this forum offers very little intelligent debate which is why many that do decide to post here, quickly leave. It's the same 5 posters day in, day out, and their job is to defend this forum by any means necessary.

This is isn't even debate, it's a game of capture the flag.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:43 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach50 View Post
These sort of comments really stifle any other view and is quite typical on this forum.




David you pretty much nailed this forum in the quote below.



I personally think this forum offers very little intelligent debate which is why many that do decide to post here, quickly leave. It's the same 5 posters day in, day out, and their job is to defend this forum by any means necessary.

This is isn't even debate, it's a game of capture the flag.
I see very little intelligent debate on the pro-illegal side. How can one defend the undefensible? Our laws are our laws and we have to abide them as they are currently written. No one on the pro side has made any sensible arguments defending the abuse of them or that we need to change them other than they just haven't been enforced. Sure as Americans we are entitled to seek changes to our laws but that doesn't include breaking them until or if they are changed. I would like for once to hear a logical argument for legalizing those who have snubbed our laws and why we even need these people with so many Americans unemployed right now. Contrary to the propaganda there are very few jobs that Americans won't do for a fair wage and for those we cannot fill with Americans we have a process called legal immigration. If that system needs reforming to expidite the paperwork then so be it but that is the only thing I can see that needs reforming with our immigration policies. Giving amnesty to millions of illegal aliens is not reforming our policies. It has nothing to do with the word reform.

My stance on our immigration policies in its current form is to first determine if we actually are short of workers in some areas rather than employers just wanting cheap illegal labor. My second concern would be about population growth. My third concern would be making sure that we allow immigration from several different countries/ethnic groups and not mostly just one. If our country is to remain about diversity while still retaining our identifying culture and language, how can this be acheived by importing those from mostly one group or country?
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:53 AM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,102,012 times
Reputation: 957
There is change on both sides of the border, mexicans returning are not a burden, the are the change mexico will need. their building and exposure to a better life will forge them foward to make positive changes in Mexico.

and their stay here, contratray to opponets, was a benefit for all...whether admitted or not, the facts are plain to see.

and as I recall, the economy was booming, jobs plentiful for all...untill
some on Wall Street wanted all the marbles and started America down a path of Financial ruin...I wonder how many Illegal aliens sold america "down the drain" by trading in Derivatives? How many illegal aliens forclosed on your neighbors home because they mis-managed the Bank's accounts. Bernie Madoff, one person, bilked Billions from americans...Not even all the "Anchor Babies" in America did the financial damage that one Bernie perpetrate on America...

I think more correctly, amnesty its the Anti's Nightmare more than its immigrants dream...the undocumented worker knows he is here along as work allows. Because as far as I know, No Illegal immigrate can propose amnesty legislation or Vote on legislation. so IF it passes, dont blame the dreams of the ones that cant make it come true in the first place...
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