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Old 02-24-2010, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,845 posts, read 23,231,384 times
Reputation: 12228

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
No assumption at all in my first sentence. My reply was based on "your" assumption of us anti's. What you call generalization in my second sentence is based on the majority responses and views of most Hispanics on this issue starting with yours for example.

So making illegal aliens self-deport or even forced deportations is akin to the "Trail of Tears"? Can I assume that you think that our country has no right to immigration laws and sovereign borders then and of course that would have to apply to ALL countries then to be fair, right?
What is "incorrect" is determined by the person judging it. If that is you, and you say I'm incorrect, then big whoop.

Re: the bold, Assumption #2, Generalization #2. Assuming I'm Hispanic, and generalizing that Hispanics support illegal immigration. I haven't once said that I'm Hispanic in this thread, nor have I said I support illegal immigration in this thread.

How would you make them self-deport? Are you going to tell them and expect them to follow your orders? Are you going to GPS track every single one? Come on, give me some humane ideas here.

Re: forced deportation. Thousands of buses going south down the road wouldn't be a "trail of tears" of sorts? It would be tears of joy for you, but perhaps not for them or their families -- IMO this sort of scenario would be a huge wart on modern American history, and would likely be condemned by many of our allies.

Our country has every right in the world to enforce immigration laws and keep sovereign borders, but they aren't enforcing them. Our laws and borders seem to exist in name only, and there has got to be a reason for that, perhaps one we do not know. There's some political meandering going on (on both sides of the aisle) which has allowed illegal immigration to continue, for what reason, only they know.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:21 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,157,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1751texan View Post
There is change on both sides of the border, mexicans returning are not a burden, the are the change mexico will need. their building and exposure to a better life will forge them foward to make positive changes in Mexico.

and their stay here, contratray to opponets, was a benefit for all...whether admitted or not, the facts are plain to see.

and as I recall, the economy was booming, jobs plentiful for all...untill
some on Wall Street wanted all the marbles and started America down a path of Financial ruin...I wonder how many Illegal aliens sold america "down the drain" by trading in Derivatives? How many illegal aliens forclosed on your neighbors home because they mis-managed the Bank's accounts. Bernie Madoff, one person, bilked Billions from americans...Not even all the "Anchor Babies" in America did the financial damage that one Bernie perpetrate on America...

I think more correctly, amnesty its the Anti's Nightmare more than its immigrants dream...the undocumented worker knows he is here along as work allows. Because as far as I know, No Illegal immigrate can propose amnesty legislation or Vote on legislation. so IF it passes, dont blame the dreams of the ones that cant make it come true in the first place...
I can refute your "facts" with my own "facts". I think my facts are a lot more compelling and viable than yours. Uncontrolled population growth by illegal immgiration or any other way for that matter is not a postive. Fact? Of course, but I would call it more like common sense. Having a huge supply of cheap illegal labor does indeed drive down wages and favors hiring that labor over legal labor. Fact? Of course, but I would call it more like common sense. Adding millions and millions not planned for to our social infrastructures such as our schools, jails, hospitals, roads and competition for jobs can't be a positive. Fact? Of course, but I would call it more like common sense. Adding millions who cannot or do not pay their medical costs (such as the birthing of their numerous babies) not even in our country legally and in turn that expense passed on to the taxpayer cannot be a postive. Fact? Of course, but I would call it more like common sense. Also who is paying for the additional school lunches, healthcare and welfare for their kids born on our soil? Not a positive allowing illegal aliens into our country giving birth on our soil at the taxpayer expense.

Anyone who thinks that the employers are passing much of the savings unto Americans by hiring illegal aiens isn't dealing in reality especially since we have to pick up the tab for the above expenses. What about the rule of law? I often wonder why this is never a part of the equasion in a pro-illegal mind. I notice also that none of them will address the "diversity" issue I brought up in my last post.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:31 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,157,849 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
What is "incorrect" is determined by the person judging it. If that is you, and you say I'm incorrect, then big whoop.

Re: the bold, Assumption #2, Generalization #2. Assuming I'm Hispanic, and generalizing that Hispanics support illegal immigration. I haven't once said that I'm Hispanic in this thread, nor have I said I support illegal immigration in this thread.

How would you make them self-deport? Are you going to tell them and expect them to follow your orders? Are you going to GPS track every single one? Come on, give me some humane ideas here.

Re: forced deportation. Thousands of buses going south down the road wouldn't be a "trail of tears" of sorts? It would be tears of joy for you, but perhaps not for them or their families -- IMO this sort of scenario would be a huge wart on modern American history, and would likely be condemned by many of our allies.

Our country has every right in the world to enforce immigration laws and keep sovereign borders, but they aren't enforcing them. Our laws and borders seem to exist in name only, and there has got to be a reason for that, perhaps one we do not know. There's some political meandering going on (on both sides of the aisle) which has allowed illegal immigration to continue, for what reason, only they know.
Isn't Aguilar a Hispanic surname? We have addressed over and over how they would self-deport and that is taking away incentives to remain here such as implementing e-verify which will dry up the job magnet.

Why should any American shed a tear over the deportation of those who have snubbed our immigration laws? Should I also shed a tear for other law breakers? By what logic? Why would any country condemn us for enforcing our immigration laws? They also have immigration laws and deport their own border jumpers. IMO we are earning the disrespect of other nations for being so stupid as to allow million and millions to enter our country illegally and some are from known terrorist countries wishing to harm us. What kind of messege are we sending to our enemies also?

The reason our government hasn't enforced our immigration laws have been pointed out in here numerous times. The bottom line is that they are sworn to protect our borders and they haven't. We Americans have the right to expect that no matter what "their" ulterior motives are.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:31 AM
 
Location: SouthCentral Texas
3,855 posts, read 4,089,287 times
Reputation: 957
Im not pro-illegal anything...Im anti-Anti...Especially if antis have no concetpt of the Constitution or how laws work in this Country...

Name one major lesigslation proposed and passed by the Anti movement.
name one constitutional amendment passed or repealed by the Antimovement?

show the increase numbers in deportations in the US from 2005 thru 2009

List the States that use Everify for all employers.

so for all your facts, it hasnt translated to more than Forum fodder...
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:35 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,157,849 times
Reputation: 2130
Name one that the pro-illegals have passed. In order to make changes one has to get rid of those who are anti-American in our government and we are in the process of doing so. November will be a good start.

How soon you forget that amnesty was tried a couple of years ago and we anti's shot it down and will again.
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Old 02-24-2010, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,845 posts, read 23,231,384 times
Reputation: 12228
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Isn't Aguilar a Hispanic surname?
Yes, it is, and on an anonymous forum there is no guarantee that it's my real last name, nor is it a guarantee that it isn't an alias. We've gone over this before Chicago (the band, not the city) nut.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
We have addressed over and over how they would self-deport and that is taking away incentives to remain here such as implementing e-verify which will dry up the job magnet.
I want you to visit my local Jack-In-The-Box in Aurora, Colorado. There are two big signs on the door which declare "THIS EMPLOYER USES AND COMPLIES WITH E-VERIFY". Then I want you to go up to the counter, look back into the kitchen, and tell me that the people working back there look any different from illegal immigrants. I'll even pay for your value meal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
Why should any American shed a tear over the deportation of those who have snubbed our immigration laws? Should I also shed a tear for other law breakers? By what logic? Why would any country condemn us for enforcing our immigration laws? They also have immigration laws and deport their own border jumpers. IMO we are earning the disrespect of other nations for being so stupid as to allow million and millions to enter our country illegally and some are from known terrorist countries wishing to harm us. What kind of messege are we sending to our enemies also?
I guess you missed the "of joy" part.

Just watch, if the bus thing happens (it won't), just wait for the ire we get from around the world (especially Mexico, and other large origination points for immigrants).

Re: our enemies, they are finding ways in that don't involve crossing the southern border. Sadly, they seem to have the entry-by-airplane thing down.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,643,200 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Yes, it is, and on an anonymous forum there is no guarantee that it's my real last name, nor is it a guarantee that it isn't an alias. We've gone over this before Chicago (the band, not the city) nut.



I want you to visit my local Jack-In-The-Box in Aurora, Colorado. There are two big signs on the door which declare "THIS EMPLOYER USES AND COMPLIES WITH E-VERIFY". Then I want you to go up to the counter, look back into the kitchen, and tell me that the people working back there look any different from illegal immigrants. I'll even pay for your value meal.



I guess you missed the "of joy" part.

Just watch, if the bus thing happens (it won't), just wait for the ire we get from around the world (especially Mexico, and other large origination points for immigrants).

Re: our enemies, they are finding ways in that don't involve crossing the southern border. Sadly, they seem to have the entry-by-airplane thing down.
Let Mexico take offence towards the USA deporting illegal aliiens. Hypocrites much (Mexico)?

Quote:
CIUDAD JUAREZ, MEXICO - For the first time, U.S. officials plan to embed American intelligence agents in Mexican law enforcement units to help pursue drug cartel leaders and their hit men operating in the most violent city in Mexico, according to U.S. and Mexican officials.
U.S. agents to fight drug cartels in Mexico - Washington Post- msnbc.com

As it stands: US law enforcement is starting to take the reins in Mexico concerning the growing drug war there.

Needless to say: Mexico will be in no position to squawk about the repatriation of their citizens.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,823,428 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
There appears to be a lot of jumping-to-conclusions on this forum. That's why I don't stick around long. They always pull things out of my posts that I'm not saying, which gives me little incentive to respond.

Every once in awhile, I check in here to see if intelligent debate is ever occurring. It never is. It's always the same unoriginal talking points. The same people. The same thumbs up, and happy faces directed in a spiteful way towards the illegal immigrants themselves, not towards the broken system we have that allows them to be here with little recourse.

Some live in a fantasy-land, expecting an American Revolution-type uprising out of people who are mostly poor peasants in their homeland. I don't think that's what many of our European ancestors did before they left Europe (for example)........

Others have little idea of what Mexico or her people are like. They are sheltered into thinking that Mexicans have it as good as us, or that they can. They don't, and they can't.

They can say it's about the illegal immigration, but I don't think it is entirely. I think it's more an attempt of self-preservation of mainstream American culture, an attempt to revert to how things were, or "oughta be". It's sad that some are so threatened by a class of what are largely poor people. It's sad that they actually think they have a dog in the fight, and that the words they spout off on here are actually making a difference, and that somebody is listening.

Even if all illegal immigrants were gone tomorrow, they'd still see things (and people) they didn't like around them, many of these "illegals" they complain about probably aren't even illegal. I can't tell the difference between a Mexican with a visa, and a Mexican that came illegally (and neither can they). They probably can't tell the difference between a US-born Mexican-American and a now grown-up person that was dragged across the border as a toddler. There's too much gray area for the displeasure to be directed appropriately.

Hoping to get rid of illegal immigrants is only the first step, what is the next one? It doesn't just end there. So we get rid of them, do cartwheels, throw a big party, and just close the book? Sounds pretty unlikely.

They can use the bad economy as a crutch, but they were here when the economy was good. So obviously the economic problems aren't their fault. The economy will be good again, and there will still be illegal immigrants here when it is.

So I'm going to sit here and wait for somebody to challenge me, and I'm going to wait for somebody to say I said something that I didn't, and I'm going to wait for the accusations, generalizations and assumptions.

And we'll see if I respond.
Would you care to expound on the “broken system we have that allows them to be here with little recourse?”

What differentiates the poor in Mexico from the blacks in this country who were in fact willing to fight and die for equality? Why is the notion of an uprising in Mexico so farfetched? Seriously, I am trying to understand why it is impossible for the citizens of Mexico to demand change, rather than fleeing to the U.S. in hopes of achieving the “American Dream.”

Perhaps you will also explain the connection between European immigrants legally relocating to the US, and the illegal presence of 10% of Mexico.

I don’t believe anyone is so ignorant to believe Mexico is on par with the US. However, you portray Mexico as being incapable of progressing beyond its current state. There are poor in every country. However, compared to places such as Haiti, Mexico is paradise. Should Mexico’s proximity to the U.S. afford its underclass the right to seek a better life by violating our laws? Or, should we revise our laws to accommodate them?

What’s wrong with self-preservation and mainstream American culture? Why shouldn’t a country strive to preserve what its citizens have fought and died to realize? If not for the sacrifices of brave American men and women, we would not be the destination of choice, and there would be no illegal immigration, because no one would choose to come here. I certainly have no desire to revert to “how things were.” However, I do desire to retain our middle-class population and our first-world status.

Contrary to your belief, as citizens of this country, we do have a dog in this fight. After all, this is OUR country, and if it fails, we ALL fail. Therefore, I am willing to fight. Otherwise, the sacrifices of my ancestors, and those of my fellow Americans, will have been in vain.

It matters not whether the opinions conveyed on this forum are deemed relevant by you or anyone else. I am here to exchange information and discuss topics pertaining to illegal immigration. And yes, on occasion vent. This is a small sub-forum on one of many discussion boards on the internet. That’s all it is.

Ending illegal immigration is only one step in a long process to return some semblance of the rule of law to this country. Yes, illegal aliens were here when the economy was good. And yes, they did fall under the radar for many years. But that was “then.” We must deal with “now.” And now, we have unprecedented illegal immigration, and unprecedented abuse of U.S. taxpayers. We are also in the midst of an economic recession. If we don’t have enough jobs for our own citizens, how on earth can we justify allowing millions of foreigners, legal or illegal, to continue to work in this country?

No, illegal immigration is not responsible for all of our woes, but it is certainly a factor. How could it not be, when we are spending billions annually to feed, educate, house, medically treat, prosecute, and incarcerate foreigners who have no right to be here?

If our laws are enforced, illegal aliens will not be employed. If they can’t work, and can’t receive government assistance, how will they continue to live in this country?

In closing, your final sentence (bolded) reeks of arrogance. Or, am I jumping to conclusions? I have to leave, but I will return, if you choose to grace us with your presence.
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:19 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 5,081,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I just have two remark to all of your statements and that is that you are incorrect on all of your summations of this whole issue and about those of us who want our immigration laws enforced. The fact that your views are attached, to a Hispanic surname is kind of to be expected.
For a person who claims to not jump to racialized conclusions...
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Old 02-24-2010, 02:44 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,157,849 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Yes, it is, and on an anonymous forum there is no guarantee that it's my real last name, nor is it a guarantee that it isn't an alias. We've gone over this before Chicago (the band, not the city) nut.



I want you to visit my local Jack-In-The-Box in Aurora, Colorado. There are two big signs on the door which declare "THIS EMPLOYER USES AND COMPLIES WITH E-VERIFY". Then I want you to go up to the counter, look back into the kitchen, and tell me that the people working back there look any different from illegal immigrants. I'll even pay for your value meal.



I guess you missed the "of joy" part.

Just watch, if the bus thing happens (it won't), just wait for the ire we get from around the world (especially Mexico, and other large origination points for immigrants).

Re: our enemies, they are finding ways in that don't involve crossing the southern border. Sadly, they seem to have the entry-by-airplane thing down.
My username in here doesn't denote a certain ethnicity without being such. I don't pretend to be something I may or may not be.

Where did I say that I can tell by looking at someone whether they are here legally or not? I don't get your Jack In The Box analogy then.

I never suggested that we put illegals on buses en masse and deport them. I prefer self-deportations from lack of incentives to stay here. Why in the world would you think that either our allies or enemies would think badly of us to enforce our immigration laws when they enforce their own? Some kind of logic is lacking in that one.

Terrorists will choose whatever avenues are open to them to enter our country. We have a big gaping hole on our southern border and it has been easily penetrated by the fact that we have already had millions of illegals enter that way. Now you try and tell me that our enemies haven't licked their lips on the possibilities open for them down there. The FBI Director Robert Mueller has already stated that numbers of persons from known terrorist countries have already entered that way and disappeared into our country. Just because the last attack was with airplanes doesn't mean there will never be another way attempted. In fact, it would make more sense for them to try something different next time around. Besides, who is to say they wouldn't enter our country from the south this time and still try the airplane attack or some other method of terrorism? We need to keep them from entering in the first place so they can't perform an act of terrorism after they are inside of our country.
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