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Old 02-27-2010, 10:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
How would you make them self-deport? Are you going to tell them and expect them to follow your orders? Are you going to GPS track every single one? Come on, give me some humane ideas here.

Re: forced deportation. Thousands of buses going south down the road wouldn't be a "trail of tears" of sorts? It would be tears of joy for you, but perhaps not for them or their families -- IMO this sort of scenario would be a huge wart on modern American history, and would likely be condemned by many of our allies.

Our country has every right in the world to enforce immigration laws and keep sovereign borders, but they aren't enforcing them. Our laws and borders seem to exist in name only, and there has got to be a reason for that, perhaps one we do not know. There's some political meandering going on (on both sides of the aisle) which has allowed illegal immigration to continue, for what reason, only they know.
Actually some do self deport. A large number of illegals originally intended to return home when they first packed their backpacks to head over the border. Most looked forward to the day they would go home to their friends and family before inertia and the promises by politcians to reward them with amnesty and easy citizenship.

They find it easier to stay - the money here is still bigger than back home, and they discover the many government programs that make working for a living just an option.

It's silly to insist that someone going back to his own country is somehow humane. It's not humane to create a giant welfare class of displaced foreign citizens, it's not humane to use them for their cheap labor and make them the new poverty class here.

Many of us familiar with the problem of illegals actually know of illegals who have gone back home -- and they didn't die, they didn't starve. They went home, got jobs, or got back into farming and ranching and there they are -- just as happy as they can be.

Why you people act like going to Mexico is like falling off the edge of the earth is beyond me. Just like Americans who are caught in Mexico living and working there illegally are returned to the USA, the reverse should happen. It does sometimes happen and it's not the end of the world for anyone.
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Old 02-27-2010, 10:12 AM
 
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So after I take the heat for assuming that "Aguilar" is a Hispanic surname the truth comes out. Could have saved me a lot of headache by just being honest up front.
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Old 02-28-2010, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,857 posts, read 23,345,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
There's a fundamental difference in our perception of illegal immigration. You believe they should only be deported “if they are caught breaking the law.” In my opinion, that is akin to saying embezzlers should be prosecuted, if caught. The fact that they manage to avoid detection does not minimize the crime, nor absolve them of guilt. With the exception of children, there are no innocent parties. There are no gray areas. No if, ands, or buts, their mere presence constitutes a willful violation of the law.

While I have compassion for the children, their parents chose to live in this country illegally, and subject them to the consequences of their unlawful behavior. I feel for them as I do the children of all who choose to live outside the law. However, there are no special provisions for the children of citizen criminals. On a daily basis, those children suffer the consequences of their parents’ decisions. They are certainly not rewarded because their parents broke the law. Why should the children of illegal aliens be treated differently? The blame lies solely with the parents.
Well, how else are we going to prosecute criminals? How can someone be prosecuted if they are not caught?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Our illegal immigration problem is unprecedented. Therefore, there are no comparisons to be made between the European immigrants and the illegal aliens from Mexico. Moreover, we didn’t receive 10% of the citizens of one particular European country. Nor was the #2 source of revenue for said country generated through remittances received from their fleeing masses.
So, European immigrants of yesteryear were higher-quality people? Were there no poor European immigrants? We have no way of knowing how many we received from each country or if money was sent back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The referenced “fight for the US” was in regards to fighting to improve this country, not as a member of our military. I don’t endorse the inclusion of non-citizens in our armed forces. I certainly wouldn’t want my loved one’s life to be dependent on someone who has no allegiance to this county, and no stake in its future.
If the reward for doing so is citizenship, how is that "no stake"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Yes, unfortunately, we do have many uneducated young parents. We always have, and always will. They are also generally a tax burden. Education and social status should not be the sole barometer. However, we don’t need a glut of uneducated and poor immigrants. We needed them during the Industrial Revolution, but now we must be more selective. Now, we need ingenuity. We need educated and intelligent immigrants. We don’t need an underclass to compete against our underclass.

We didn’t choose to have the poor and uneducated. However, they are citizens of this country; thus, their reliance on government assistance is irrelevant to the topic of illegal immigration. Are you suggesting we should embrace poor and uneducated foreigners, simply because we provide our own with social services? Again, our poor belong here, illegal aliens don’t. We certainly don’t need to import poverty.
True, but I'm not proposing the importation of poor/uneducated immigrants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that only those with “connections” can work in Mexico?
That was the sentiment I got from many Mexicans (legal or illegal). I used to roommate with a legal Mexican who had a college degree from a Mexican university. He came here to pursue better opportunities, because in his opinion the only way you could get ahead in Mexico was based on "who you know".

The illegals said virtually the same thing, like jobs weren't made available to uneducated, poor folks like themselves. I don't condone them coming here, but I don't blame them for coming here when they can make $7/hr instead of $7/day. If I could move to Canada and start making $700K/yr tomorrow, I probably would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Why should any citizen be expected to accept wage depression created by illegal immigration? Citizens should NOT have to “lower themselves” to the level of illegal aliens. Our government needs to eliminate the job magnet by enforcing our laws.
Agreed. But, if somebody wants to compete (with no matter who it is), they will either compete, work to change their circumstances, or fall by the wayside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
This is not geographic specific. It is a direct result of an influx of illegal aliens in the workforce and in communities. I don’t recall employers in the past requiring employees to learn Italian, German, or French. No, those immigrants had to either learn English, or be left behind, and they were here legally.
And you think people that don't learn English aren't left behind? In addition, there are tons of places in this country where you can go where Spanish is as foreign as Swahili.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
What gives you the impression that legalizing illegal aliens will increase our tax base? They aren’t exactly high-wage earners. For the most part, they would pay nothing once they receive tax refunds through EIC and their numerous exemptions for their dependents. If anything, we would add more to our welfare rolls. Again, why import poverty?
Good points, but why not think outside the box?

-If they want to be here, make sure they pay some percentage of their gross income in taxes.
-Make them ineligible for tax refunds, EIC, dependent exemptions, as a penalty for their previous illegal status.

That way, there'd be no increased burden on our social system (since they are already getting school/food stamps/welfare/health/etc), and we'd be getting paid for it.

If we get rid of the loopholes that they are exploiting, we wouldn't have a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Why wouldn't it be? They speak the language there, they know the customs, the culture.

How can it be so much easier for them here in a country they have no right to be in, are here illegally and so must sneak around, take low paying jobs and so on? Here they don't know the language, most haven't the ability to learn it. It's common to see people who have lived here 20,30,40 years still unable to communicate at any level in English.
If it was "so easy" they'd already be doing it.

The "low paying jobs" they take here are "high-paying jobs" to them. I have known plenty of illegals that speak English well. If there is a Mexican that doesn't speak any English (that has been here for more than 10 years), he is the exception, not the rule.

But you do have a point. If they can live here for 40 years without learning English, chances are they are living in Spanish-predominant communities, in which case, why would they need to learn English if they can get by without it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Actually some do self deport. A large number of illegals originally intended to return home when they first packed their backpacks to head over the border. Most looked forward to the day they would go home to their friends and family before inertia and the promises by politcians to reward them with amnesty and easy citizenship.

They find it easier to stay - the money here is still bigger than back home, and they discover the many government programs that make working for a living just an option.

It's silly to insist that someone going back to his own country is somehow humane. It's not humane to create a giant welfare class of displaced foreign citizens, it's not humane to use them for their cheap labor and make them the new poverty class here.

Many of us familiar with the problem of illegals actually know of illegals who have gone back home -- and they didn't die, they didn't starve. They went home, got jobs, or got back into farming and ranching and there they are -- just as happy as they can be.

Why you people act like going to Mexico is like falling off the edge of the earth is beyond me. Just like Americans who are caught in Mexico living and working there illegally are returned to the USA, the reverse should happen. It does sometimes happen and it's not the end of the world for anyone.
I've known guys that have come here, sent money home, gone home (supposedly for good), and have come back months later. The money is too good to stay away.

Like I said, close the loopholes, and they will no longer be exploited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
So after I take the heat for assuming that "Aguilar" is a Hispanic surname the truth comes out. Could have saved me a lot of headache by just being honest up front.
Dude, the things you pick out.

I have never said Aguilar wasn't a Hispanic surname. But just because someone's surname is Aguilar doesn't make them Hispanic, Mexican, pro-illegal, or otherwise. You were making assumptions. Like that1guy said, there are Filipinos with that surname. There are Spaniards, Portuguese, Brazilians, and countless others with that surname.

My mother's maiden name is an English one. Does that make me loyal to the British Crown?
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Old 02-28-2010, 12:22 PM
 
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I’m glad they are protesting in Mexico. However, a few protests will not exact change. It must be an ongoing process. I could be mistaken, but I just don’t sense the urgency.

It's been ongoing from the Zapitista protests in the 1990s to the protests calling for the resignation of Calderon today. There is a dearth of international coverage here in the United States. Hence why it is a common misconception that people in the third world aren't politically savy. On the contrary, in my opinion, I feel that political knowledge is more advanced in nations that require more partiticipation out of their citizens to advance their standard of living.

I didn’t say all of the former immigrants were tolerated. I said they had permission to be here. Big difference.

The know nothing party had a great following in the mid to late 1800s. This led to immigration restraints on Asians and Southern Europeans later on. Hence a somewhat moderately large illegal Chinese population in California.

Assimilation or lack thereof, is not the issue. At issue is the fact that they are here illegally. Their rate of assimilation is debatable, and changes according to the source. Again, that isn’t the real issue.

You can't have it be a point and not be an issue at the same time. Meaning, you can't say it's not an issue while bringing up constantly. The assimilation rates AREN'T debatable as we have seen the language profiency increase in subsequent generations.

Clearly, you will not change my mind, nor I yours. I gave you my honest opinion based on anecdotal accounts, personal experience, and empirical data. Whether you choose to believe me is entirely your prerogative. Take care.

I just feel that anecdotal data lacks something. Here's an example: My nephew comes up running to me saying the teacher gave him an unfair grade. He says that a kid in his class got a better grade because the other kid was a girl. I asked how did he know that was the case. He states it was becasue girls got better grades in general. I asked him to show me his paper. I noticed the sloppy writing and the lack of structure on the paper. I said well what about the sloppy writing and lack of sentence structure. He glanced to the floor and turned red. I told him not to jump to conclusions without looking at ALL other factors. The problem with anecdotes, typically, is that people jump to all sorts of conclusions. Esp. in illegal immigration. People losing their jobs because of illegal immigrants solely? That's hard to prove. There are TOO many variables.


My point is that while being anti-illegal is entirely a valid stance to take, the means of which you support your stance can't be as subjective as it appears to be. Otherwise it's baseless and borders on fear mongering.
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Old 02-28-2010, 12:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
So after I take the heat for assuming that "Aguilar" is a Hispanic surname the truth comes out. Could have saved me a lot of headache by just being honest up front.
Assumptions are still assumptions. You assumed that his being hispanic influenced his thinking as well. It could have been completely wrong. He may have been a myriad of other ethnic groups as well...
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Old 02-28-2010, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,868,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Well, how else are we going to prosecute criminals? How can someone be prosecuted if they are not caught?
You stated, “if they are caught committing a crime” as though their mere presence isn’t a crime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
So, European immigrants of yesteryear were higher-quality people? Were there no poor European immigrants? We have no way of knowing how many we received from each country or if money was sent back.
No, I didn’t say they were “higher quality,” only that they came here with our permission; and that one particular European country did not encourage 10% of its population to live here for the benefit of their home country. Nor, did I imply that none of those immigrants sent money back to their homelands; only that said remittances did not constitute the #2 source of revenue for their country.

Quote:
According to Mexico's central bank, remittances fell 3.6% in 2008 to $25bn.

This money is the country's second largest source of foreign income after oil revenues.
BBC NEWS | Business | Slowdown hits Mexico remittances

We have records for legal immigrants. So yes, we do know how many we received, and their countries of origin. And yes, it is unprecedented. For the first time in history, we now receive more illegal aliens than legal immigrants.

Quote:
More immigrants came to the United States illegally from 2000 through 2004 than the number who were granted legal status in those years,
Report Details Growth in Illegal Migration - washingtonpost.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
If the reward for doing so is citizenship, how is that "no stake"?
Because, they wouldn’t be a citizen at that time. If they hold no allegiance, what makes you believe they would be willing to die for this country, or save the lives of American soldiers? If we need non-citizen soldiers, we can hire mercenaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
True, but I'm not proposing the importation of poor/uneducated immigrants.
No? Don’t you endorse the legalization of millions of poor/uneducated illegal aliens?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
That was the sentiment I got from many Mexicans (legal or illegal). I used to roommate with a legal Mexican who had a college degree from a Mexican university. He came here to pursue better opportunities, because in his opinion the only way you could get ahead in Mexico was based on "who you know".

The illegals said virtually the same thing, like jobs weren't made available to uneducated, poor folks like themselves. I don't condone them coming here, but I don't blame them for coming here when they can make $7/hr instead of $7/day. If I could move to Canada and start making $700K/yr tomorrow, I probably would.
Even if it required violating the laws of Canada, stealing the identities of citizens, or using fraud and deception to remain there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Agreed. But, if somebody wants to compete (with no matter who it is), they will either compete, work to change their circumstances, or fall by the wayside.
In other words, our citizens should either lower their standard of living to that of illegal aliens, or be left out in the cold. Got it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
And you think people that don't learn English aren't left behind? In addition, there are tons of places in this country where you can go where Spanish is as foreign as Swahili.
Obviously, they aren’t being left behind, given that an estimated 8 million illegals are employed in this country, the majority whom speak no English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Good points, but why not think outside the box?

-If they want to be here, make sure they pay some percentage of their gross income in taxes.
-Make them ineligible for tax refunds, EIC, dependent exemptions, as a penalty for their previous illegal status.

That way, there'd be no increased burden on our social system (since they are already getting school/food stamps/welfare/health/etc), and we'd be getting paid for it.

If we get rid of the loopholes that they are exploiting, we wouldn't have a problem.
So, we should deny these tax credits to our low-wage citizens? We can’t eliminate the “loopholes” without eliminating the provisions intended to help our own. We certainly can’t have different tax laws for the newly amnestied illegals, now can we? Wouldn’t that be discrimination against one segment of our citizenry?

In any case, based on their wages, their taxes couldn’t possibly compensate for the services they would receive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I've known guys that have come here, sent money home, gone home (supposedly for good), and have come back months later. The money is too good to stay away.

Like I said, close the loopholes, and they will no longer be exploited.
Agreed. If our laws are stringently enforced, only those eligible to work in this country will be employed.
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Old 02-28-2010, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Arvada, CO
12,857 posts, read 23,345,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
You stated, “if they are caught committing a crime” as though their mere presence isn’t a crime.
I guess you misunderstood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Because, they wouldn’t be a citizen at that time. If they hold no allegiance, what makes you believe they would be willing to die for this country, or save the lives of American soldiers? If we need non-citizen soldiers, we can hire mercenaries.
So basically you want to give them no way to immigrate here, am I understanding correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
No? Don’t you endorse the legalization of millions of poor/uneducated illegal aliens?
No, I don't. If they aren't going to be physically deported, many will remain here anyway. If the loopholes aren't closed, they will remain here anyway. My life won't change whether they're here or not. We might as well get something out of them and/or level the playing field for the American workers that you say are suffering because of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Even if it required violating the laws of Canada, stealing the identities of citizens, or using fraud and deception to remain there?
I don't condone doing any of those things, but I'm not in a situation where I'd have to make a decision like that.

But think about it, septuple your income, get all the social services you "need", and the only penalty you could face is deportation. I'm sorry, but that's all the understanding out of illegals I need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
In other words, our citizens should either lower their standard of living to that of illegal aliens, or be left out in the cold. Got it.
Do they want jobs or not? Do they want income or not? Do they want to rely on the system, or not? If the choice is $11/hr to work with illegals, or $0/hr to not work with illegals....

I'm not saying that employers are right in exploiting illegals, but who's going to stop them? Not the American that's going to apply for a job. Not his Mom. Not the government apparently.

If competing with illegal immigrants is a possibility, perhaps said American should move into a different industry, change locations, or do something to improve their lot. Americans shouldn't have to do any of these things, but that's what the reality is right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Obviously, they aren’t being left behind, given that an estimated 8 million illegals are employed in this country, the majority whom speak no English.
Give me the most recent census numbers (or relevant third party estimates) that show that the majority of employed illegals don't speak English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
So, we should deny these tax credits to our low-wage citizens? We can’t eliminate the “loopholes” without eliminating the provisions intended to help our own. We certainly can’t have different tax laws for the newly amnestied illegals, now can we? Wouldn’t that be discrimination against one segment of our citizenry?

In any case, based on their wages, their taxes couldn’t possibly compensate for the services they would receive.
I never said deny the tax credits to our low-wage citizens, they would still get them.

As things stand now, illegals' taxes are even less proportionate to what they are receiving in services.

I guess you aren't taking in the reality that they are here, and are likely going to be here, until illegal immigration once again becomes a priority in
Washington (unlikely to happen for awhile).

If they are going to be here (and there's no getting around it), what would you do?
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Old 02-28-2010, 05:58 PM
 
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"Dude, the things you pick out.

"I have never said Aguilar wasn't a Hispanic surname. But just because someone's surname is Aguilar doesn't make them Hispanic, Mexican, pro-illegal, or otherwise. You were making assumptions. Like that1guy said, there are Filipinos with that surname. There are Spaniards, Portuguese, Brazilians, and countless others with that surname."

My mother's maiden name is an English one. Does that make me loyal to the British Crown?


First off Mr. Aguilar, I am not a dude but a dudette. (an assumption on YOUR part?)

Secondly, anyone with a Hispanic surname comes from Spanish ancestry whether they be Mexican, Filapino, etc. by nationality.

Thirdly, most Hispanics in this country are from Mexican ancestry and they are the ones who advocate for illegal aliens. The tone of your posts and your words indicate that you are an advocate.

And finally those of English ancestry are not advocating for illegals from England, have usually been born here and have no interest in England. Not so with those of Mexican ancestry. Even many of those born here still act like Mexico is their homeland and Mexicans are their people.
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:27 PM
 
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Secondly, anyone with a Hispanic surname comes from Spanish ancestry whether they be Mexican, Filapino, etc. by nationality.

This isn't true at all. Filipinos are not Spanish...not by any stretch of the imagination. Nor are people from Equitorial Guinea nor are many Mexicans.

Thirdly, most Hispanics in this country are from Mexican ancestry and they are the ones who advocate for illegal aliens. The tone of your posts and your words indicate that you are an advocate.

It's still an assumption.

And finally those of English ancestry are not advocating for illegals from England, have usually been born here and have no interest in England. Not so with those of Mexican ancestry. Even many of those born here still act like Mexico is their homeland and Mexicans are their people.

What does this paragraph have to do with anything?
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Old 02-28-2010, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,868,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I guess you misunderstood.
If I misunderstood your comments, “if they are caught committing a crime,” then what did you mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
So basically you want to give them no way to immigrate here, am I understanding correctly?
No, you did not understand correctly. We already accept more legal immigrants than all other countries combined, so how are we making it impossible for them to become immigrants? I’m not following you.

Are you suggesting we should exchange U.S. citizenship for military service? If so, I disagree. We don’t need to offer citizenship when we can simply hire mercenaries. Once their job is complete, they expect nothing but their pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
No, I don't. If they aren't going to be physically deported, many will remain here anyway. If the loopholes aren't closed, they will remain here anyway. My life won't change whether they're here or not. We might as well get something out of them and/or level the playing field for the American workers that you say are suffering because of them.
You are assuming we can’t curtail illegal immigration. It has already been proven they will leave if our laws are enforced. The majority are going to leave, one way or another, because the citizens of this country will demand it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I don't condone doing any of those things, but I'm not in a situation where I'd have to make a decision like that.

But think about it, septuple your income, get all the social services you "need", and the only penalty you could face is deportation. I'm sorry, but that's all the understanding out of illegals I need.
Obviously, we differ. While money is essential for survival, some of us will not compromise our principles for monetary gain. I could also sell weed and coke to augment my income, but then that would create a moral conflict. Ignoring the laws of a country, and relying on unethical behavior for survival, has absolutely no appeal to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Do they want jobs or not? Do they want income or not? Do they want to rely on the system, or not? If the choice is $11/hr to work with illegals, or $0/hr to not work with illegals....

I'm not saying that employers are right in exploiting illegals, but who's going to stop them? Not the American that's going to apply for a job. Not his Mom. Not the government apparently.

If competing with illegal immigrants is a possibility, perhaps said American should move into a different industry, change locations, or do something to improve their lot. Americans shouldn't have to do any of these things, but that's what the reality is right now.
Soon, the citizens of this country will have had enough. Just wait until those unemployment extensions expire, and citizens have no source of income. Do you actually believe they will tolerate having millions of illegals working in this country, while they have no means to support their families? Only 2-4% of illegals are working in the fields picking crops, so that leaves 96-98% working in construction, hospitality, restaurants, fast food, etc. Make no mistake, citizens will DEMAND those jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
Give me the most recent census numbers (or relevant third party estimates) that show that the majority of employed illegals don't speak English.
If the majority of illegal aliens speak English, why is there such a tremendous need for Spanish translation? Why do we need to press 1 for English and 2 for Spanish?

Furthermore. . .

Quote:
This morning the Pew Hispanic Center released the results of a comprehensive survey highlighting English fluency among Latino immigrants and native born Latinos, English Usage Among Hispanics in the United States. The entire report is available from the Pew Hispanic Center at Pew Hispanic Center.

Included its many findings, the in-depth report revealed that:

71 percent of Mexican immigrants speak little or no English.

"While we can always expect the first generation to struggle with learning English, the fact that more than 7-in-10 Mexican immigrants barely speak the common language of this country is evidence of a major social challenge. It also serves as a clear rebuttal to those who say that we do not have a "language problem" in the United States.
Even more troubling. . .

Quote:
Census 2000 found that there were more than 2.0 million Americans who were born in the United States who spoke little or no English; of these, more than 1.5 million were Spanish speakers.
Pew Hispanic Center Study Suggests Linguistic Challenges Ahead for U.S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
I never said deny the tax credits to our low-wage citizens, they would still get them.

As things stand now, illegals' taxes are even less proportionate to what they are receiving in services.

I guess you aren't taking in the reality that they are here, and are likely going to be here, until illegal immigration once again becomes a priority in
Washington (unlikely to happen for awhile).
You are either assuming the citizens of this country will continue to tolerate massive illegal immigration, or you are assuming illegals will be permitted to remain here through legalization. Neither will happen. Again, they WILL leave; one way or another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Aguilar View Post
If they are going to be here (and there's no getting around it), what would you do?
If it requires replacing every member of Congress, then that is what will be done. They are elected to represent their constituents, not kowtow to special interest groups and big business. Perhaps “We the People” need to send them a resounding message.
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