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Old 02-25-2010, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,733,538 times
Reputation: 815

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Quote:
I also believe that their is no job an American won't do but can't live off of the cheap labor pay bigger companies want to pay, that's why they love illegal aliens. They've gotten used to having the extra pocket cash and now they have to learn to live without it. Period. THAT'S a solution. End the greed, pay well and scale down, just like I did.
You are wrong, but it is your belief and thus immune to logic.
A. The field work is open to anyone who comes in the door to work. Currently 15% of the workers in our area are legal, citizens or residents, 100% Mexican, yet, the door is open. You show up, no one cares about your skin color, they care if you work, yet there are zero white Americans or Black Americans. I know why, you don't want to know why.

B. Wages run 8-$10 bucks an hour in the fields for unskilled labor, about the same as for other unskilled jobs. Skilled labor such as truck or tractor driving pays more. Piece work pays much more, $20-30.00 an hour, if the worker hustles. So don't use low wages as an excuse. To do so does not demonstrate knowledge of farming.
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Old 02-25-2010, 07:59 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,143,804 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
You are wrong, but it is your belief and thus immune to logic.
A. The field work is open to anyone who comes in the door to work. Currently 15% of the workers in our area are legal, citizens or residents, 100% Mexican, yet, the door is open. You show up, no one cares about your skin color, they care if you work, yet there are zero white Americans or Black Americans. I know why, you don't want to know why.

B. Wages run 8-$10 bucks an hour in the fields for unskilled labor, about the same as for other jobs. Skilled labor such as truck or tractor driving pays more. Piece work pays much more, $20-30.00 an hour, if the worker hustles. So don't use low wages as an excuse. To do so does not demonstrate knowledge of farming.
Please do not insult me again. For 8 bucks an hour, yes, some would rather work 2 clerk jobs rather than a field, but to have the pay = the work, so they can make a living, many Americans would and do work these jobs. Greedy businesses need to stop paying slave wages and pay a fair wage, certainly giving Americans first crack at the job, over legal and certainly illegal immigrants. I'm not discussing this with you any longer as your horse is dead which you keep beating. I also do not carry on conversations with others who resort to insults.
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Old 02-25-2010, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,733,538 times
Reputation: 815
Moderator: I trust you are comfortable with my civil tone of discourse here, and my willingness to explain the facts of Ag production.

Quote:
Please do not insult me again.
For 8 bucks an hour, yes, some would rather work 2 clerk jobs rather than a field, but to have the pay = the work, so they can make a living, many Americans would and do work these jobs.

I do not understand this sentence, I think that you are saying wages for work should be artificially raised, that is fine, as long as the thousands of Contractors in the country do it exactly the same. If wages are increased in the Salinas Valley, but not in Yuma AZ, all production will shift to Yuma, do you see the problem?
Greedy businesses need to stop paying slave wages and pay a fair wage, certainly giving Americans first crack at the job, over legal and certainly illegal immigrants.

Quote:
slave wages and pay a fair wage
I would love to see how $20-30 an hour is slave wages.

Business are in business to make a profit, that is capitalism, If a business increases wages, the cost of the product goes up. See my above sentence. Americans show up for field work, 15% of the laborers needed, That is it, the people who get first crack at the job are those which show up, there is a labor shortage, more workers would be welcome, they are not walking in the door looking to work.

I'm not discussing this with you any longer as your horse is dead which you keep beating. I also do not carry on conversations with others who resort to insults.

I, did not insult, if insulting is pointing out gaps in another person's knowledge, then thousands of teachers insult students all day long 5 days a week all school year.
Now, I am happy to fill in the gaps in your knowledge, but, apparently you do not want them filled.
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Old 02-25-2010, 08:42 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,976 posts, read 30,230,881 times
Reputation: 17772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
You are wrong, but it is your belief and thus immune to logic.
A. The field work is open to anyone who comes in the door to work. Currently 15% of the workers in our area are legal, citizens or residents, 100% Mexican, yet, the door is open. You show up, no one cares about your skin color, they care if you work, yet there are zero white Americans or Black Americans. I know why, you don't want to know why.

B. Wages run 8-$10 bucks an hour in the fields for unskilled labor, about the same as for other unskilled jobs. Skilled labor such as truck or tractor driving pays more. Piece work pays much more, $20-30.00 an hour, if the worker hustles. So don't use low wages as an excuse. To do so does not demonstrate knowledge of farming.
8 bucks an hour for near slave labor. It's these type of businesses that rely on this slave type labor driving down wages for what should be at least 20 bucks an hour. I bet if you could bring in 1 million Haitians you could get the slave labor you are looking for @ .50 cents an hour.

Go ahead and tell us more about this slave mill, please. If it wasn't for the govt I can't imagine the working conditions the "ag farmers" would have for the workers.

This type of stuff is why Unions were invented. If these owners had their way it would still be, "yes massa", "no massa", shakin the bushes boss. I bet Cesar Chavez turned in his bed nightly thinking about this.
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Old 02-25-2010, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,733,538 times
Reputation: 815
Quote:
It's these type of businesses that rely on this slave type labor driving down wages for what should be at least 20 bucks an hour.
Ever see footage of those Western Wildfires? The Forest Service fire crews, the men in the deep woods or the deep brush, steep hills, hot as hell, cutting line for days on end, they don't make anywhere near 20 bucks an hour.

Quote:
This type of stuff is why Unions were invented. If these owners had their way it would still be, "yes massa", "no massa", shakin the bushes boss. I bet Cesar Chavez turned in his bed nightly thinking about this.
You know that the fields are no longer union don't you, yep, even the uneducated field workers rejected the corrupt Cesar Chavez Union.

Here is some funny news for you. From about 1900 until the internment of 1942 most of the fieldworkers in this area were Japanese, their conditions were much worse than today, yet, they all managed to save their money and buy businesses and farms, you see, you might like to play the "slave" and "massa" game, but the reality is that humans better themselves, when you say to day "If these owners had their way it would still be, "yes massa", "no massa", shakin the bushes boss"

The owners, the boss, is often an Ikeda, or a Hayashi, or a Fuchiwaki, or a Sanbonmatsu, people who suffered one of the worst injustices in American history, I think you can bank on the fact that they treat the workers as valued employees.

Those of you who think some how that wages are dictated by growers sound like commies. Wages are dictated by the market, generally in a Capitalist economy, that is how it works.
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Old 02-25-2010, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,148 posts, read 36,701,482 times
Reputation: 3785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Ever see footage of those Western Wildfires? The Forest Service fire crews, the men in the deep woods or the deep brush, steep hills, hot as hell, cutting line for days on end, they don't make anywhere near 20 bucks an hour.



You know that the fields are no longer union don't you, yep, even the uneducated field workers rejected the corrupt Cesar Chavez Union.

Here is some funny news for you. From about 1900 until the internment of 1942 most of the fieldworkers in this area were Japanese, their conditions were much worse than today, yet, they all managed to save their money and buy businesses and farms, you see, you might like to play the "slave" and "massa" game, but the reality is that humans better themselves, when you say to day "If these owners had their way it would still be, "yes massa", "no massa", shakin the bushes boss"

The owners, the boss, is often an Ikeda, or a Hayashi, or a Fuchiwaki, or a Sanbonmatsu, people who suffered one of the worst injustices in American history, I think you can bank on the fact that they treat the workers as valued employees.

Those of you who think some how that wages are dictated by growers sound like commies. Wages are dictated by the market, generally in a Capitalist economy, that is how it works.
And those Japanese people were here legally. Needless to say: if the growers today are that desperate for help; they would hire a group of Mexicans, etc. using visas.
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Old 02-25-2010, 09:26 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,143,804 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Moderator: I trust you are comfortable with my civil tone of discourse here, and my willingness to explain the facts of Ag production.
Why would you be concerned about the moderators? I wouldn't report you unless it is truly harrassing insults. I simply asked you to not insult me again, I can take care of you myself..

I do appreciate you trying to explain AG., except I wonder why you deem yourself only to be the "teacher where YOU are the only expert, no one else can have a valid opinion or point". To me that shows an arrogant bore.

My crops vary, veg, herbs, ginseng, goldenseal, lavender, mushrooms to name a few. I do not feed a nation, but I help feed a nice community. Cattle is also a big part of 17 acres shared with another farmer who uses my springs. If I truly felt you had anything to offer me I probably would listen more, but I have not found any "good solutions" to anything you have been continuously raving about. I especially do not understand your reason for not wanting to use E-Verify, what this thread is about. To me, not illegal, no problem, a few caught in the crossfire, but the best we have right now.
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,733,538 times
Reputation: 815
My remark to the mod had nothing to do with you.

I am the only person here who understands large scale commercial produce farming, the farming that feeds this country. Most learners find me a fascinating lecturer.

Quote:
If I truly felt you had anything to offer me I probably would listen more, but I have not found any "good solutions" to anything you have been continuously raving about.

You are not interested in a solution, apparently neither is the government. I point out facts and reality, your use of the term "raving" is down right childish. We need to harvest vegetables, Americans are 15% of the work force (100% Mexican American, there are no white Americans in the fields, why, is not the topic under consideration here.) there are two alternative, no illegal labor in the fields and the severe dislocation of the economy, or illegal labor in the fields. You can dislike the idea all you want, but you cannot change the facts

I especially do not understand your reason for not wanting to use E-Verify, what this thread is about. To me, not illegal, no problem, a few caught in the crossfire, but the best we have right now

E verify, if implemented across the board would collapse the economy of California and probably the US. Until there is a guest worker program in agriculture, I and every grower will oppose it. Every food consumer who thinks about the problem should oppose it.
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Old 02-26-2010, 05:16 AM
Yac
 
5,882 posts, read 6,313,625 times
Don't drag me into this. And just for the record: as long as the discussion is civil and rational, I'm satisfied
Carry on.
Yac.
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