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Old 03-01-2010, 01:37 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,172,244 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
...
Uh, you said when you were young there were white kids working the fields but Mexicans were much faster and better workers. Don't try to change your story by speaking about today now. You stereotyped both whites and Mexicans in your first post.

You can re-build a blown engine. Any legislation can be changed for the better that is if there is the will to do the right thing. Appears that farmers who want the cheap labor instead don't care about anything but their bottom line and our laws be damned.
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Old 03-01-2010, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,731,248 times
Reputation: 815
Nothing stops your headlong rush does it, there is not a fact in the world that will sink in.
Quote:
Don't try to change your story by speaking about today now. You stereotyped both whites and Mexicans in your first post.

Sure I stereotyped, so what? facts is facts.

You can re-build a blown engine. Any legislation can be changed for the better that is if there is the will to do the right thing.

So, tell you what, call your congressman, ask him or her why nothing has been done. Be proactive.

Appears that farmers who want the cheap labor instead don't care about anything but their bottom line and our laws be damned.

Amazing, no matter how I say it, you can't hear it;
Field workers, legal or illegal get paid the same, and the pay is on a parity with Paramedics and Federal Wildland Fire fighters
,
read that, four or five times, maybe it will sink in.

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Old 03-01-2010, 04:54 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,172,244 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Nothing stops your headlong rush does it, there is not a fact in the world that will sink in.
No, it is stereotyping and racist. Whites or blacks don't hold the market on laziness nor do Mexicans corner the market as hard workers. They applies to both the past and the present.

I am very pro-active and you are going to find out in the near future that Americans have spoken and changes will come about although probably not to your liking.

You know I don't really care if legals and illegals get paid the same or not. That isn't the issue. The issue is that employers have no right to hire illegals and the illegals have no right to work in this country. Hope THAT will sink in.
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,731,248 times
Reputation: 815
Quote:
No, it is stereotyping and racist. Whites or blacks don't hold the market on laziness nor do Mexicans corner the market as hard workers. They applies to both the past and the present.
I know there is a point here, but I fail to see how or why it explains the lack of anglo americans in the fields.

Quote:
You know I don't really care if legals and illegals get paid the same or not. That isn't the issue.
Yet, by your prior words you do, you state;

Quote:
Appears that farmers who want the cheap labor instead don't care about anything but their bottom line and our laws be damned.
A statement that is not true.

Quote:
The issue is that employers have no right to hire illegals and the illegals have no right to work in this country. Hope THAT will sink in.
As I have explained before, the people that walk in the door have paperwork, the paperwork identifying them as legal is in order. The employer does not know who is legal and who isn't. And trust me, if e verify was strongly in effect, that fact would not change.

Now, if you want to head down to a labor contractor's offices and check through the thousands of applicant to see who is legal and who isn't, this is something you should do do save America. Otherwise, all I see is complaining and not understanding what you are complaining about.
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:20 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,172,244 times
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My comments were in direct reply to you claiming that in the past whites/black were less hard working and slower than Mexicans. They weren't in reply to why there are no anglos working the fields today. Why do I feel like I am going around in circles with you?

Most farmers do not pay the same wage to an illegal that they would a legal immigrant nor do they follow the same policies they would have to by hiring H-2A workers and the issue still is that the farmer has no right to hire illegals and the illegals have no right to work here.

Of course many illegals do bring pretty authentic looking documentation to an employer and without e-verify they can be fooled. I never said otherwise. What I am talking about is those employers who know the potential hire is an illegal and they hire them anyway.
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Old 03-01-2010, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,731,248 times
Reputation: 815
Quote:
My comments were in direct reply to you claiming that in the past whites/black were less hard working and slower than Mexicans.

I know nothing of black field workers, I have never seen one. As to whites/Anglo Americans, they have never worked the produce fields of the west in any significant numbers, aside from the blip during the Depression. Before 1942 it was mostly Japanese and some Filipinos, after 1942 it was Mexican, the Bracero program which operated successfully until 1964 or so, when it was just down without answering the questions, where is the labor going to come from.

Anecdotally, from over 50 years experience with farming. Whites/Anglos do not work as hard for as long as Mexicans, they also choose other jobs, they do not work in the fields.

Most farmers do not pay the same wage to an illegal that they would a legal immigrant nor do they follow the same policies they would have to by hiring H-2A workers and the issue still is that the farmer has no right to hire illegals and the illegals have no right to work here.

I give up on the H2A problem, I have explained it four ways from Sunday you ain't hearing it.


And again, (I keep repeating myself, apparently some do not want to listen) Growers do not hire field workers, field workers do not work for the grower, have you not been reading? All workers in the fields are protected by state and federal employment laws, the pay is the same, because, let me repeat, because, no one except the worker knows if he is illegal or not. All workers, let me repeat, all workers have SS Fica workmens all applicable state and federal taxes withheld.


Of course many illegals do bring pretty authentic looking documentation to an employer and without e-verify they can be fooled. I never said otherwise. What I am talking about is those employers who know the potential hire is an illegal and they hire them anyway.

"pretty authentic looking" are your words.
Now, let us try a little reality based info.

1st. The great majority of produce growers are large corporations, very large corporations. Many of which farm produce not only in America where there are stringent food safety laws, but also in Mexico, Central America and Africa, where there aren't. And wages are much lower. Next time you are in the supermarket check the country of origin.

You are given a sort of Hobson's choice, you can buy produce that is grown here and has some illegal labor involved, and you get stringent American food safety laws. Or you can get produce from other countries where no illegal labor is involved and no stringent food safety laws.
Now, if restrictions on labor become onerous, more and more of these large corporations will shift operations out of the country.
America will be dependent on foreigners for food as we are for oil, and that food will not be as safe as American grown.
The large corporations won't care, they will make their money. The smaller outfits will go out of business and the fertile American soil will grow houses, gas stations and condos. The growers will sell the land for much more than they can make providing America with food, and will retire to their condos in Mexico.

Another scenario. You are a conscientious grower, you call Jose at Labor Contractors R us and tell him, I need 14 roguers Tues through Thursday, and I need 53 harvesters Tues through Saturday, and because I am a conscientious grower, can you assure me that the workers are legal?

Jose will tell you, "I can assure their papers are in order"

You say, " can you guarantee me they are all legal"?

Jose says, I got to place 1200 workers by tomorrow, you want to run checks on everyone, come on down, I ain't got the time.

You say, "well, it isn't my job,"

Jose says, call Raul at Labor Contractors is us"

You do, same story, you call every contractor within 50 miles, same story, your produce rots in the field.

Sometimes there is a difference between the possible and the perfect.
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:15 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,933 posts, read 30,188,716 times
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Now you are comparing a head of cabbage with a soft skinned tomato? On my farm we'd call that apples and oranges.
Many farmers used to use migrant labor in my area but now they all use skinny tired tractors that can weed the lines without killing produce or crops like beans. I was all but raised on a JD 4020.
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:16 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,142,474 times
Reputation: 453
I have a question for you Clarks: Why all the sudden interest? What is really your beef? Why have you lobbed along for years and no concern? You say cheap labor is not the issue, you say you only hire those on work visas at a fair price. Or are you paying cheap labor I assume? Or you can't find anyone to do the work at cheap labor costs? Or you pay a fair price and cannot find workers? So, I ask, illegal immigration is the solution? I've given you several options, you dismissed them with "hire THEM if you want". Please do not say "read my posts" as you do continue to go round and round without stating your true concerns which I believe to be the legal ability as well as acceptance of cheap labor. There are other nation friendly alternatives that have been shown, you, as a farmer choose to ignore because it will cut into your profits so please stop trying to say this is a National issue, when it is, indeed, a greed issue. Yours.
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Old 03-01-2010, 06:26 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,172,244 times
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No Clarks, "pretty authentic looking" documents is rampant in this country. They aren't just my words they are the facts. Look it up on the internet. It happens all the time.
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:33 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,142,474 times
Reputation: 453
To add: "nobody here understands true farming". It worked just fine before cheap labor, get back to basics, not lining pockets. Also was stated, You can only hire those who will work. Are you saying that those Americans given the opportunity to work for a wage that can sustain an American household is lazy? I beg to differ. Ever been on a construction site of Auger-cast drilling? Geopiers? Ever see a laborer making 17 an hour at the end of that day? I seriously doubt it. They would revel in a pick this pile that job. You are the one who has no clue about American labor. I put these boys to bed at night. I know.
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