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Old 02-26-2010, 07:20 AM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,137,548 times
Reputation: 453

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New H-2A worker visa regulations rile farmers - Natural Resource Report

I think any change is a good one and will help clean everything up. Asking to show proof of searching for dependable and legal help coupled with offering a fair wage to me are both positives.
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,720,267 times
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I have stated any number of times that the H2A program simply does not work in agriculture, Stallman reinforces that.
The key word is, periodic.

Right now, we are pulling 400 crates of cabbage out roughly each week, on our home farm. 10 times that on the other three. This work is done in one day, and is done after the ground dries enough to walk in the heavy adobe soil, and before the next storm. What this means is that we need 300 workers the day we need them, and that day often cannot be designated until a day or two before the need. During a storm cycle we may not need the crews for several weeks, if the storms hold off we may need them more frequently, but since the market can only absorb X crates of fresh cabbage per week, and that varies with demand, such as how many people are eating coleslaw at KFC that week. There can be no reliable prediction of how much produce is needed, therefore, how many workers are needed weekly.

Now, Getout, since you are highly knowledgeable on H2 visa, Please explain how I can use the H2 visa system with these constraints.

I expect a coherent usable explanation.
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:20 AM
 
Location: San Diego
32,799 posts, read 30,044,409 times
Reputation: 17688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
I have stated any number of times that the H2A program simply does not work in agriculture, Stallman reinforces that.
The key word is, periodic.

Right now, we are pulling 400 crates of cabbage out roughly each week, on our home farm. 10 times that on the other three. This work is done in one day, and is done after the ground dries enough to walk in the heavy adobe soil, and before the next storm. What this means is that we need 300 workers the day we need them, and that day often cannot be designated until a day or two before the need. During a storm cycle we may not need the crews for several weeks, if the storms hold off we may need them more frequently, but since the market can only absorb X crates of fresh cabbage per week, and that varies with demand, such as how many people are eating coleslaw at KFC that week. There can be no reliable prediction of how much produce is needed, therefore, how many workers are needed weekly.

Now, Getout, since you are highly knowledgeable on H2 visa, Please explain how I can use the H2 visa system with these constraints.

I expect a coherent usable explanation.
If you can't make a buck within the guidelines (read make a buck without breaking a law) your business does indeed need to fail. This drives innovation and I'm sure someone would be willing to produce a machine to replace human dirty hands to harvest cabbage.


Oh wait, they already have.

(WO/2002/009497) CABBAGE HARVESTING MACHINE
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:25 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
I have stated any number of times that the H2A program simply does not work in agriculture, Stallman reinforces that.
The key word is, periodic.

Right now, we are pulling 400 crates of cabbage out roughly each week, on our home farm. 10 times that on the other three. This work is done in one day, and is done after the ground dries enough to walk in the heavy adobe soil, and before the next storm. What this means is that we need 300 workers the day we need them, and that day often cannot be designated until a day or two before the need. During a storm cycle we may not need the crews for several weeks, if the storms hold off we may need them more frequently, but since the market can only absorb X crates of fresh cabbage per week, and that varies with demand, such as how many people are eating coleslaw at KFC that week. There can be no reliable prediction of how much produce is needed, therefore, how many workers are needed weekly.

Now, Getout, since you are highly knowledgeable on H2 visa, Please explain how I can use the H2 visa system with these constraints.

I expect a coherent usable explanation.
I am all for making it easier for farmers/growers to attain legal foreign workers when needed. Having said that, regardless of what business an American is in there is no justification for hiring illegal aliens. If an American farmer or any other American business person knows they can't exist without illegal labor then they should get out of that business and open a business where an ample supply of American or legal labor will be available to keep it going.

Our government would make sure labor is available for crop picking if illegals disappeared out of our country. If nothing else to make sure that the elite have food on their tables.
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:47 AM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,137,548 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
by Clarks
Now, Getout, since you are highly knowledgeable on H2 visa, Please explain how I can use the H2 visa system with these constraints.
Number one, I really do not care what YOU expect, secondly, again with the sarcasm, only you have deemed I to be highly knowledgeable regarding H2 visas. What, someone cannot post something with an opinion without sarcasm or demanding a debate of a member? What if I am learning? Try not to take it so personal, please. Besides, you are not open to any suggestions or opinions from other members.

I stand by my opinion, any change to this is a good one which will deter illegal immigration; read my first post. Corporations that rely on illegal alien hiring need to find a different way.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,720,267 times
Reputation: 815
Quote:
If you can't make a buck within the guidelines (read make a buck without breaking a law) your business does indeed need to fail. This drives innovation and I'm sure someone would be willing to produce a machine to replace human dirty hands to harvest cabbage.
When Cesar Chavez's union struck the fields, growers (calling them farmers is like saying Cali for California or Frisco for San Francisco) worked together with UC Davis to mechanize farming. That was nearly 40 years ago. Everything that can be successfully machine harvested is. Even grapes, but, you don't like that wine, you want your grapes picked at maximum sugar, which varies day to day and clump to clump, an experience harvester will take the best, leave the unbest, same with cabbage, some is ready to be picked, some isn't. Machines have a tough time beating humans. Regarding your first sentence. There was a system in place that worked, it was ended by the government. If you and the rest of America are willing to pay more than a hundred dollars for a head of cabbage, or drink lousy wine, etc. the problem could be solved tomorrow.


Quote:
Having said that, regardless of what business an American is in there is no justification for hiring illegal aliens. If an American farmer or any other American business person knows they can't exist without illegal labor then they should get out of that business and open a business where an ample supply of American or legal labor will be available to keep it going.
Somehow there is a perception that Americans like to eat. Once you fix that, you have a clean run to home plate. Now, remember, every worker has documentation that they are legal. There are about 30,000 farm workers in the Santa Maria Valley, that is one small valley in CA, there are many many more areas that are farmed, employers cannot afford the time and money to check. If you would like to volunteer your time to do so, I am sure you would find a warm welcome.

Quote:
Number one, I really do not care what YOU expect, secondly, again with the sarcasm, only you have deemed I to be highly knowledgeable regarding H2 visas. What, someone cannot post something with an opinion without sarcasm or demanding a debate of a member? What if I am learning? Try not to take it so personal, please. Besides, you are not open to any suggestions or opinions from other members.

I stand by my opinion, any change to this is a good one which will deter illegal immigration; read my first post. Corporations that rely on illegal alien hiring need to find a different way.
getout, you have a certain unwarranted defensiveness. You have posted numerous times on the advantages of H2, I have posted numerous times on the impossibility of using H2, I am knowledgeable on the subject. I assumed post hoc ergo propter hoc, apparently I was wrong, my apologies.

Quote:
Corporations that rely on illegal alien hiring need to find a different way.
Any suggestions other than systems designed very carefully to be impossible to implement? My question was a serious one. Do you have a system in mind that will work? Refresh your memory with my prior post if you need to. [that was not an attack, merely a suggestion]

There are many many people who do not like the current system, but there seems to be no workable solution coming from them.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:48 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Clarks, as getout and I already stated, if ANY business cannot or will not operate within the laws of this country then they should fail and go out of business. It is really that simple.

I am not concerned that our crops won't get picked without illegals or that prices will supposedly go sky high. I know better than that and so do you. And the pro-illegal side claims that WE use fear tactics?
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,720,267 times
Reputation: 815
Quote:
Clarks, as getout and I already stated, if ANY business cannot or will not operate within the laws of this country then they should fail and go out of business. It is really that simple.

I am not concerned that our crops won't get picked without illegals or that prices will supposedly go sky high. I know better than that and so do you. And the pro-illegal side claims that WE use fear tactics?
You are wrong, now, you have every right to believe what you wish, I cannot alter that, but persisting in a line of thinking, completely outside the bounds of ones experience is not the greatest thing to do.

If you think I am wrong, explain why.
While you are there, tell me why there are no black or white Americans working in the California produce fields?
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:46 PM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,137,548 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
You are wrong, now, you have every right to believe what you wish, I cannot alter that, but persisting in a line of thinking, completely outside the bounds of ones experience is not the greatest thing to do.

If you think I am wrong, explain why.
While you are there, tell me why there are no black or white Americans working in the California produce fields?
How about first trying to hire legal immigrants or Americans? You say that cannot/will not happen. OK, work release programs for offenders? Parolees would also LOVE to have a job waiting for them that pays a FAIR wage. Agricultural students, group organizations. It can be done, you just have to work at it. A company in NC, will not disclose their name as I do not have permission to affiliate them with this issue, hired new parolees to build the 5 mile bridge at the Outer Banks. They were very grateful for the work, worked hard and remained loyal. Not ONE criminal incident resulted from hiring work release inmates as well.
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:48 PM
 
1,448 posts, read 2,658,723 times
Reputation: 690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
You are wrong, now, you have every right to believe what you wish, I cannot alter that, but persisting in a line of thinking, completely outside the bounds of ones experience is not the greatest thing to do.

If you think I am wrong, explain why.
While you are there, tell me why there are no black or white Americans working in the California produce fields?

Mateo is an unusual case. There aren’t many other farmworkers who are still in the fields when they reach their 50s. It’s simply not possible to do this work for decades and not suffer a permanently hunched back, or crooked fingers, or hands so swollen that they look as if someone has attached a valve to a finger and pumped vigorously. The punishing nature of the work helps explain why farmworkers don’t live very long; the National Migrant Resources Program puts their life expectancy at 49 years

The last word: A gringo in the lettuce fields - THE WEEK

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...957458,00.html
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