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Old 03-07-2010, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,181 posts, read 9,811,718 times
Reputation: 2981
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
Actually; DREAMies as a group are pathetic little children, emotionally speaking, who do not accept the Rule of Law as it needs to pertain to illegal aliens.
There also can’t be a more arrogant group. One had the audacity to say they’ll be marching in DC to show this country they mean business. How on earth does anyone living in a country illegally have that much gall?

 
Old 03-07-2010, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Pa
19,816 posts, read 10,774,995 times
Reputation: 6124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
There also can’t be a more arrogant group. One had the audacity to say they’ll be marching in DC to show this country they mean business. How on earth does anyone living in a country illegally have that much gall?
The enablers re-enforce said behavior. Then of course you have elected reps like Pelosi who say that it is unamerican to enforce our laws.
 
Old 03-07-2010, 09:39 PM
 
418 posts, read 262,382 times
Reputation: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
You opt for anarchy?
3 root causes.
1. Lack of immigration enforcement. IE border control
2. Lack of labor law enforcement.
3. Entitlment mentality of illegals and their supporters.
I don't advocate entitlement. However I'd like to turn that around on you. Why do you advocate entitlement for US citizens? Why not make the playing field even?

If your job was taken by an illegal then you're not competitive enough in a free market.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Deregulating the industries is not the answer. Look what happened by deregulating the banking industry...
Nice false dichotomy. What do you call FDIC insurance? How about the artificial interest rates set by the Fed?

Doesn't sound deregulated to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
Remove building codes? No thanks I don't want more people dieing due to electrical fires caused by shoddy work, or houses falling down due to heavy snow on buildings not built to a code.
So this is what illegals are doing that is making their work cheaper? Show me instances where this is the case. Back it up that illegals don't work up to code and that's why they are cheaper.
 
Old 03-07-2010, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Full time RV"er
2,403 posts, read 3,495,279 times
Reputation: 1347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
There also can’t be a more arrogant group. One had the audacity to say they’ll be marching in DC to show this country they mean business. How on earth does anyone living in a country illegally have that much gall?
They were taught to have that attitude i "OUR" schools! Wake Up America!
 
Old 03-07-2010, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Pa
19,816 posts, read 10,774,995 times
Reputation: 6124
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfacedjenkins View Post
I don't advocate entitlement. However I'd like to turn that around on you. Why do you advocate entitlement for US citizens? Why not make the playing field even?

If your job was taken by an illegal then you're not competitive enough in a free market.




Nice false dichotomy. What do you call FDIC insurance? How about the artificial interest rates set by the Fed?

Doesn't sound deregulated to me.



So this is what illegals are doing that is making their work cheaper? Show me instances where this is the case. Back it up that illegals don't work up to code and that's why they are cheaper.
The R is on you. You said that americans can compete by working cheaper. I explained why that is simply not true. We must pay our taxes or risk jail. We must if we wish to stay in business obey code. We as a people normally don't relocate to hide from our practices. Illegals on the other hand do relocate and can because what difference does it make to them? They are here as criminals to begin with. Their good name is of little value to them, because they have no name.
Entitlment for US citizens? We belong here, have a right to be here. Illegals do not.
Your entitlment analogy is flawed. Thats like saying an owner of a nice car has an entitlment mentality if he thinks he is the only one allowed to drive it. Level the playing field let anyone drive it.
Illegals dont work to code.
Drywall. Depending where you are building code requires the use of glue and screws. No nails. Illegals will use ring shank nails and call it good. It is good for about a year . Then you get the nail pops, and cracked joints. A licensed contrator has to care. That is unless he wants to make a habit out of relocating every year. No legal citizen should ever be forced to compete with those who have no right to be here in the first place. That is leveling the playing field, and why we have laws.
 
Old 03-07-2010, 10:31 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 3,423,294 times
Reputation: 773
The R is on you. You said that americans can compete by working cheaper. I explained why that is simply not true. We must pay our taxes or risk jail. We must if we wish to stay in business obey code. We as a people normally don't relocate to hide from our practices. Illegals on the other hand do relocate and can because what difference does it make to them? They are here as criminals to begin with. Their good name is of little value to them, because they have no name.
Entitlment for US citizens? We belong here, have a right to be here. Illegals do not.

Besides the fact that MOST professors agree that wage deflation doesn't exist, would decreasing illegal immigration actually have an effect on wages? Okay let's say that wages are deflated (not AT ALL reality, this will briefly illustrate why). If 10 workers are displaced then that means that 10 workers are seeking jobs (the assumption being that all workers are in the same field and seeking employment). Now, if the 10 workers whom displaced the first group (let's call the illegal group, the 'displacers', A) are deported (group A is deported) then that means that group B faces competition between its members. So competition between members of group B means that overall wages would not change. Then you look at other factors. If there is little competition for jobs in this sector, will automation be more beneficial (since there is less demand for jobs, thus less of an incentive to hire since wages would rise). Also, would outsourcing be a better benefit? What about legal immigrants or younger workers (assumption being that there is a decently fast learning curve). With the types of industries that have higher concentrations of illegal immigrants, you have challenges that other industries don't (automation and outsourcing are two big ones).

Now the argument you may propose is that ALL 10 workers in group B would be employed...but again this negates the increased possibility that said industries would not like to retrain (initial investments are higher for new staff than existing staff) and may favor alternative means of production. So it's not really guaranteed that the jobs would be there still. Sometimes, the business may close altogether as seen across the nation. So jobs actually DECREASE in many other industries as well (less jobs means less consumers meaning less jobs in other industries).


Your entitlment analogy is flawed. Thats like saying an owner of a nice car has an entitlment mentality if he thinks he is the only one allowed to drive it. Level the playing field let anyone drive it.

No, since owning a car is tangible. Thus it's less subjective.

Illegals dont work to code.

That's debatable. Unless facts and figures are presented how can we know this blanket statement?

Drywall. Depending where you are building code requires the use of glue and screws. No nails. Illegals will use ring shank nails and call it good. It is good for about a year . Then you get the nail pops, and cracked joints. A licensed contrator has to care. That is unless he wants to make a habit out of relocating every year. No legal citizen should ever be forced to compete with those who have no right to be here in the first place. That is leveling the playing field, and why we have laws.

Again much of this is simply conjecture. Unless you can quantitatively prove that the majority of illegals use "ring shank nails and call it good" then you can't make a blanket statement.

Competition occurs on a daily basis, esp. in highly vulnerable industries. Construction is not a stable industry. It's a lot less stable than say health or even finance over the long term. It's a sad reality of life that blue collar is overall tossed by the wayside. Illegal immigration, however, is the least of a person's concerns over getting employed.
 
Old 03-07-2010, 10:40 PM
 
Location: Pa
19,816 posts, read 10,774,995 times
Reputation: 6124
Quote:
Originally Posted by that1guy View Post
The R is on you. You said that americans can compete by working cheaper. I explained why that is simply not true. We must pay our taxes or risk jail. We must if we wish to stay in business obey code. We as a people normally don't relocate to hide from our practices. Illegals on the other hand do relocate and can because what difference does it make to them? They are here as criminals to begin with. Their good name is of little value to them, because they have no name.
Entitlment for US citizens? We belong here, have a right to be here. Illegals do not.

Besides the fact that MOST professors agree that wage deflation doesn't exist, would decreasing illegal immigration actually have an effect on wages? Okay let's say that wages are deflated (not AT ALL reality, this will briefly illustrate why). If 10 workers are displaced then that means that 10 workers are seeking jobs (the assumption being that all workers are in the same field and seeking employment). Now, if the 10 workers whom displaced the first group (let's call the illegal group, the 'displacers', A) are deported (group A is deported) then that means that group B faces competition between its members. So competition between members of group B means that overall wages would not change. Then you look at other factors. If there is little competition for jobs in this sector, will automation be more beneficial (since there is less demand for jobs, thus less of an incentive to hire since wages would rise). Also, would outsourcing be a better benefit? What about legal immigrants or younger workers (assumption being that there is a decently fast learning curve). With the types of industries that have higher concentrations of illegal immigrants, you have challenges that other industries don't (automation and outsourcing are two big ones).

Now the argument you may propose is that ALL 10 workers in group B would be employed...but again this negates the increased possibility that said industries would not like to retrain (initial investments are higher for new staff than existing staff) and may favor alternative means of production. So it's not really guaranteed that the jobs would be there still. Sometimes, the business may close altogether as seen across the nation. So jobs actually DECREASE in many other industries as well (less jobs means less consumers meaning less jobs in other industries).

Your entitlment analogy is flawed. Thats like saying an owner of a nice car has an entitlment mentality if he thinks he is the only one allowed to drive it. Level the playing field let anyone drive it.

No, since owning a car is tangible. Thus it's less subjective.

Illegals dont work to code.

That's debatable. Unless facts and figures are presented how can we know this blanket statement?

Drywall. Depending where you are building code requires the use of glue and screws. No nails. Illegals will use ring shank nails and call it good. It is good for about a year . Then you get the nail pops, and cracked joints. A licensed contrator has to care. That is unless he wants to make a habit out of relocating every year. No legal citizen should ever be forced to compete with those who have no right to be here in the first place. That is leveling the playing field, and why we have laws.

Again much of this is simply conjecture. Unless you can quantitatively prove that the majority of illegals use "ring shank nails and call it good" then you can't make a blanket statement.

Competition occurs on a daily basis, esp. in highly vulnerable industries. Construction is not a stable industry. It's a lot less stable than say health or even finance over the long term. It's a sad reality of life that blue collar is overall tossed by the wayside. Illegal immigration, however, is the least of a person's concerns over getting employed.
Are you in construction? Done construction for a living? Didn't think so.
I on the other hand have, and have family still in construction. Drywall is most definetly an industry illegals have swamped and low balled the prices.
I really dont care what some zipper head at bereley or anywhere else says. If they dont live the life they are guessing. The guy that designed an engine for a 747 might be able to talk about its specs. But install one? Tune it? Actually make it work? Not a chance.
10% unemployment. That means every job an illegal is doing is a job an unemployed citizen is denied. That is reality. Spin it as you will but that is the reality.
I have 5 apples. 7 people want one. if 2 are stolen by a thief that means at least 2 people are denied needlessly. Said it before and I will say it again. No legal citizen should be forced to compete against someone who has no right to be here or work here.
 
Old 03-07-2010, 10:41 PM
 
418 posts, read 262,382 times
Reputation: 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
The R is on you. You said that americans can compete by working cheaper. I explained why that is simply not true. We must pay our taxes or risk jail. We must if we wish to stay in business obey code. We as a people normally don't relocate to hide from our practices. Illegals on the other hand do relocate and can because what difference does it make to them? They are here as criminals to begin with. Their good name is of little value to them, because they have no name.
Entitlment for US citizens? We belong here, have a right to be here. Illegals do not.
Your entitlment analogy is flawed. Thats like saying an owner of a nice car has an entitlment mentality if he thinks he is the only one allowed to drive it. Level the playing field let anyone drive it.
Illegals dont work to code.
Drywall. Depending where you are building code requires the use of glue and screws. No nails. Illegals will use ring shank nails and call it good. It is good for about a year . Then you get the nail pops, and cracked joints. A licensed contrator has to care. That is unless he wants to make a habit out of relocating every year. No legal citizen should ever be forced to compete with those who have no right to be here in the first place. That is leveling the playing field, and why we have laws.
Just sounds like more whining to me. How can places like Singapore with practicly open boarders and gigantic foreign populations wipe the floor with us and stay competitive? I guess they don't p*ss and moan about someone stealing their sh*tty construction job. We already have enough houses anyway.
 
Old 03-07-2010, 10:46 PM
 
Location: Pa
19,816 posts, read 10,774,995 times
Reputation: 6124
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyfacedjenkins View Post
Just sounds like more whining to me. How can places like Singapore with practicly open boarders and gigantic foreign populations wipe the floor with us and stay competitive? I guess they don't p*ss and moan about someone stealing their sh*tty construction job. We already have enough houses anyway.
Yawn. Been to Singapore have you?
Open borders? No not the Singapore that I have been to. Can a chinese person own property in Singapore? Thailand? Uhmmm No , no I dont think so. How about Indonisia? Whoa gets a little bit worse there.
Easy to say its whining when your not the one getting the shaft.
Explain to me again how or why illegals have a right to compete with legals for work? Hey aren't 100% of all illegals criminals?
 
Old 03-07-2010, 10:56 PM
 
3,536 posts, read 3,423,294 times
Reputation: 773
Are you in construction? Done construction for a living? Didn't think so.

Did you own a firm? I KNOW SCADS of people in construction. Where do I live? Inland Empire? The nation's fastest growing region? Oh, what's the number 1 industry here? Construction. So my neighbor is a foremen, three of my friends do drywalling. I did construction during 1 summer (not for a long time, but still did it). Let's see my other neighbor OWNS his own firm. We got the painter up the corner. The guy who installed our floors. Our neighbor who is a plumber. You can't escape construction in one of the fastest growing cities in America (1990 it was 1st, 2006 it was 6th).

I on the other hand have, and have family still in construction. Drywall is most definetly an industry illegals have swamped and low balled the prices.
I really dont care what some zipper head at bereley or anywhere else says.
If they dont live the life they are guessing. The guy that designed an engine for a 747 might be able to talk about its specs. But install one? Tune it? Actually make it work? Not a chance.

So a person who tells others to PUT in the engine doesn't have a clue? Umm...not only is that completely wrong, but a "zipper head in Berkeley" has more data than your life experience. You and your experiences are important, but they don't reflect EVERYONE'S experience. Think about this way: I go to an autistic family's home, I observe the behavior. While his behavior is relevant to that particular situation, it is simply a data point when aggregated. You and your experiences are data points out of ALL the data collected by that person.


10% unemployment. That means every job an illegal is doing is a job an unemployed citizen is denied. That is reality. Spin it as you will but that is the reality.

It's not spin. It's taking EVERYTHING into consideration. 10% unemployment is bad, but when you simply create an "us" vs. "them" you aren't taking EVERY other factor involved. You over simplify and that's where problems arise.

I have 5 apples. 7 people want one. if 2 are stolen by a thief that means at least 2 people are denied needlessly. Said it before and I will say it again. No legal citizen should be forced to compete against someone who has no right to be here or work here.

It's not a consumer good, first off. Jobs aren't stolen second off (there is consent by the person who supplied the job). Thirdly, then we should end trade and enable companies to not expand abroad since competition is too hard on the current labor market. That's the extremist stance that can be made with YOUR same logic. See the problems that could arise. China clearly has a comparative advantage on production of consumer goods. It would be a waste of resources to do those same things. It wouldn't mean more jobs. Just like the complete deportation would not mean more jobs (as illustrated in the previous post).
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