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Old 06-11-2007, 08:59 AM
 
Location: In an illegal immigrant free part of the country.
2,087 posts, read 1,052,974 times
Reputation: 382

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You know it takes more than one to have a debate. Maybe someone needs to stand alone. I think we can all agree to a "freeze out"
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:06 AM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,346,148 times
Reputation: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Simply follow the chain of evidence cited by your propagandist sources. The original materials do not support the claims made.

One example...

From The American Daily...

Last year, the rate of TB in the northern part of Virginia rose 17 percent.

True enough, although the data cited are for 2001 over 2000, a fact which was not made clear in the article. The increase in NoVa was from 149 to 174, an increase of 25, which would have been 12 to 14 more cases than would have been expected.

The Va. Department of Health blamed the rise on that region's recent flood of illegal immigrants.

No it didn't. It stated that 63% of cases in 2001 were in persons born outside the US versus 63% in 2000. If you check them carefully, you'll note that those two numbers are identical. The afflicted foreign-born were meanwhile from 37 different countries and spoke 28 different primary languages. There is no mention in the report of the immigration status of any of them.

Bottom Line: The report in The American Daily is an example of distortion of cherry-picked data. It is willfully dishonest in its representations. It does not represent fact. It represents propaganda.
So you don't like the links I supplied despite the fact I offered a vaiety of them. How about this link?
Division of Tuberculosis Elimination (DTBE) - Home Page
A few snippets for your consideration:
Quote:
Seven states (California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, and Texas) reported more than 500 cases each for 2006; combined, these seven states accounted for 60% (8,259) of all TB cases.
Quote:
In 2006, for the third consecutive year, more TB cases were reported among Hispanics than any other racial/ethnic population.
Quote:
Furthermore, the proportion of TB cases among foreign-born persons has increased each year since 1993. If the global TB pandemic remains unmitigated, eliminating TB in the United States will be increasingly difficult because most foreign-born persons in the United States who progress from latent TB infection to TB disease initially became infected with TB abroad
Quote:
To address the higher rate of TB among foreign-born persons in the United States and the increasing proportion of cases they represent, CDC is considering several strategies (e.g., revising overseas medical screening of applicants for U.S. immigration). These strategies should decrease importation of TB into the United States and improve immigrant and refugee health. CDC also is continuing to work with international partners, including the Stop TB Partnership (Stop TB Partnership - Home Page), to strengthen TB control in countries with high TB incidence.
Surely you can make the correlation between foreign-born immigrants coming into this country infected with TB and the need to eforce our immigration laws, including the health screening that is supposed to be required?
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Old 06-11-2007, 09:45 AM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,737,865 times
Reputation: 4000
Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
So you don't like the links I supplied despite the fact I offered a vaiety of them. How about this link?
A variety of propagandist links offers no improvement over an isolated one. These sources lie, cheat, distort, and misrepresent, as I earlier documented with respect to The American Daily. I notice that you were unable to offer any defense of this source at all. The other beams and rafters of your house of propagandist cards would fall as easily, but it is not my job to pick them off like tin cans on the back fence one by one by one. It is your job to substantiate any case you wish to make, and if all you can offer in support is such propagandist rubbish, then you have no case to make to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
Surely you can make the correlation between foreign-born immigrants coming into this country infected with TB and the need to eforce our immigration laws, including the health screening that is supposed to be required?
In a world where tens of millions of international passenger miles are flown annually, the need to be concerned over risks of spreading disease from one locale to another far more rapidly than has ever been the case before is quite obvious. If you have a comprehensive proposal for regulating business and tourist travel in this regard, do put it forward. If, on the other hand, your plan is to use this concern to justify yet another of your let's-get-the-Mexicans proposals, you may as well keep it to yourself.
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Old 06-11-2007, 10:52 AM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,346,148 times
Reputation: 1401
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
A variety of propagandist links offers no improvement over an isolated one. These sources lie, cheat, distort, and misrepresent, as I earlier documented with respect to The American Daily. I notice that you were unable to offer any defense of this source at all. The other beams and rafters of your house of propagandist cards would fall as easily, but it is not my job to pick them off like tin cans on the back fence one by one by one. It is your job to substantiate any case you wish to make, and if all you can offer in support is such propagandist rubbish, then you have no case to make to begin with.


In a world where tens of millions of international passenger miles are flown annually, the need to be concerned over risks of spreading disease from one locale to another far more rapidly than has ever been the case before is quite obvious. If you have a comprehensive proposal for regulating business and tourist travel in this regard, do put it forward. If, on the other hand, your plan is to use this concern to justify yet another of your let's-get-the-Mexicans proposals, you may as well keep it to yourself.
I don't think I have any need to defend any of the links I posted. That you may pick them apart for trivial discrepncies is irrelvant to the point they are making.
IF you looked, the lates link was the CDC. Center for Disease Control. This has nothing to do with "let's-get-the-Mexicans", it has to do with enforcing immigration laws. There is more to our immigration laws than just making it tough on the poor people that want to move here. I'm shocked that you have not been able to understand that irregardless of the proof presented to you. If you have a comprehensive proposal for regulating immigration and securing our borders against illegal aliens, do put it forward.
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Old 06-11-2007, 11:58 AM
 
Location: In an illegal immigrant free part of the country.
2,087 posts, read 1,052,974 times
Reputation: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
I don't think I have any need to defend any of the links I posted. That you may pick them apart for trivial discrepncies is irrelvant to the point they are making.
IF you looked, the lates link was the CDC. Center for Disease Control. This has nothing to do with "let's-get-the-Mexicans", it has to do with enforcing immigration laws. There is more to our immigration laws than just making it tough on the poor people that want to move here. I'm shocked that you have not been able to understand that irregardless of the proof presented to you. If you have a comprehensive proposal for regulating immigration and securing our borders against illegal aliens, do put it forward.

Those that have no comprehension of the words illegal, sovereign nation, assimilation or respect will try to do their best to discredit anyone or any site that publishes the truth. Keeping people from the truth is their main objective. We need to ignore those types and keep the pressure on our representatives.
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Old 06-12-2007, 06:19 AM
 
Location: In an illegal immigrant free part of the country.
2,087 posts, read 1,052,974 times
Reputation: 382
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPONGE4LIFE View Post
Man, I've never seen so many ignorant posts in my life. 90% of illegal immigrants are good, honest people who want a decent and better life, the same as white people. An illegal immigrant makes a few dollars a day in his home country, and 40-60 dollars a day in our country. I would cross illegally as well!!!! This is not an issue of breaking the law, this is an issue of survival.

Whatever the situation, it is NOT our responsibility to take care of the citizens of another country with our tax dollars. It is an issue of breaking the law. They destroy neighborhoods, Mexico encourages their criminals to come here, they break our hospitals financially, they degrade or schools because they really have no interest in learning English, they drive living wages down and take jobs from Americans. It’s time to deport them all and there should be a backlash and boycott against any business that hires them.
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Old 06-13-2007, 11:05 PM
 
19,183 posts, read 27,737,865 times
Reputation: 4000
Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
I don't think I have any need to defend any of the links I posted. That you may pick them apart for trivial discrepncies is irrelvant to the point they are making.
That wasn't a 'trivial discrepancy'. It was an outright and purposeful LIE that formed the basis of the point the author was trying to make. It isn't at all that you don't have any NEED to defend that link. It's that you don't have any WAY.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
IF you looked, the lates link was the CDC. Center for Disease Control.
Yes...something from your snippets...

Seven states (California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, and Texas) reported more than 500 cases each for 2006; combined, these seven states accounted for 60% (8,259) of all TB cases.

I'm shocked. The states with the largest number of TB cases accounted for a sizable proportion of total cases. Who would have thought that would happen? Let's talk rates. How would the TB rate in California, with a large number of Hispanic immigrants, compare to that in Alaska or Hawaii, which have large numbers of Asian immigrants, or to that in Washington DC, which has a large number of black immigrants? Here's a hint: Among those four, the TB rate in California would be the lowest.

In 2006, for the third consecutive year, more TB cases were reported among Hispanics than any other racial/ethnic population.

Another surprise here! Hispanics are, by a factor of 20%, the largest racial/ethnic group in the population. One would expect that they would have the largest number of cases. But again, let's look at rates. In 2006, among foreign-born blacks in the US, the TB rate was 8.4 times higher than the rate among US-born persons. Among Asians, it was 21.2 times higher. Among Hispanics, it was 7.6 times higher. Imagine that. Hispanics are actually the major racial/ethnic group that is least likely to have TB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
This has nothing to do with "let's-get-the-Mexicans", it has to do with enforcing immigration laws.
There is scant evidence for that proposition anywhere in this sub-forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
There is more to our immigration laws than just making it tough on the poor people that want to move here. I'm shocked that you have not been able to understand that irregardless of the proof presented to you.
There is no such word as 'irregardless', and you haven't posted proof of much of anything. Propaganda, lies, and cherry-picked data that any serious student can pick apart in a matter of minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
If you have a comprehensive proposal for regulating immigration and securing our borders against illegal aliens, do put it forward.
Your own comprehensive plan is three words long: Deport them all. There meanwhile is a comprehensive plan afloat not far from me. You all hate it.

What you all need to do is wake up. I'm sure you've heard the politician's saying that it is unwise to let the perfect become the enemy of the good. What you all are doing is letting the stupid become the enemy of the good. The deportation of 12 million people, from strawberry pickers to brain surgeons, is not going to happen. Let it go. Hispanics, not whites, will be the majority population in very signifcant parts of this country. Permanently. There is nothing you can do about it. Let it go. The current situation re immigration works to the detriment of everyone but a select few. We need to change it. You all are not helping the situation at all.
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Old 06-14-2007, 01:26 AM
 
1,156 posts, read 1,874,837 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
I work in the hospital here, part of my job is screening job applicants. It is required that we screen everyone for TB. Nearly every Mexican applicant has a positive skin test and then must have a chest xray to determine if they have active TB or if they just have anti-bodies.
So does a majority of So. Californian citizens, and most do not even know it!
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Old 06-14-2007, 05:46 AM
 
Location: SW Kansas
1,787 posts, read 3,346,148 times
Reputation: 1401
Quote:
Your own comprehensive plan is three words long: Deport them all. There meanwhile is a comprehensive plan afloat not far from me. You all hate it.

What you all need to do is wake up. I'm sure you've heard the politician's saying that it is unwise to let the perfect become the enemy of the good. What you all are doing is letting the stupid become the enemy of the good. The deportation of 12 million people, from strawberry pickers to brain surgeons, is not going to happen. Let it go. Hispanics, not whites, will be the majority population in very signifcant parts of this country. Permanently. There is nothing you can do about it. Let it go. The current situation re immigration works to the detriment of everyone but a select few. We need to change it. You all are not helping the situation at all.
I seriously doubt there are any brain surgeons here illegally.
Yes, we do need to change the current situation - we need to enforce the existing laws. This so-called "comprehensive reform" is a joke, and dispite your attempts to convince anyone otherwise I think you know it too. Your answer to illegal aliens is to grant them all amnesty, I don't think that is a solution. It is a solution that has been tried numerous times, and has failed to work yet. Since you don't have any apprechiation for facts, I'll just tell you my opinion. You have failed to present any proof that illegal aliens are doing the majority any good. Despite the fact that they cost us more than they contribute, you cling to the notion they are beneficial. And you persist in trying to make this an race issue. Picking and sniping at grammer, being snide and rude, etc is not an effective debate tool. It is usually used when there is nothing to contribute to the debate. Your contempt is apparent , if you are trying to be persuasive, you have failed. Your insistance that 12 million illegal aliens be granted amnesty leads me to assume you must be profiting from the very people you proclaim to support. May you find peace with that. I however, do not find peace in exploiting the poor for my personal gain and will continue to fight laws that do so and continue to fight for equality under the law - not special privileges for the "chosen".
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Old 06-14-2007, 08:47 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
Reputation: 3010
Quote:
Originally Posted by chele123 View Post
I seriously doubt there are any brain surgeons here illegally.
Yes, we do need to change the current situation - we need to enforce the existing laws. This so-called "comprehensive reform" is a joke, and dispite your attempts to convince anyone otherwise I think you know it too. Your answer to illegal aliens is to grant them all amnesty, I don't think that is a solution. It is a solution that has been tried numerous times, and has failed to work yet. Since you don't have any apprechiation for facts, I'll just tell you my opinion. You have failed to present any proof that illegal aliens are doing the majority any good. Despite the fact that they cost us more than they contribute, you cling to the notion they are beneficial. And you persist in trying to make this an race issue. Picking and sniping at grammer, being snide and rude, etc is not an effective debate tool. It is usually used when there is nothing to contribute to the debate. Your contempt is apparent , if you are trying to be persuasive, you have failed. Your insistance that 12 million illegal aliens be granted amnesty leads me to assume you must be profiting from the very people you proclaim to support. May you find peace with that. I however, do not find peace in exploiting the poor for my personal gain and will continue to fight laws that do so and continue to fight for equality under the law - not special privileges for the "chosen".
Can't add to that, can we folks?

Excellent post Chele.
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