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Old 04-29-2010, 07:43 PM
 
47,578 posts, read 54,621,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rggr View Post
The law says that they have to have stopped someone for something else first, not just walking down the street. It says that after that, if there is reasonable suspicion, other than race or ethnicity (directly stated) that they may ask for evidence of citizenship. Resonable suspicion is a standard that exists throughout our laws. This one takes the extra step of specifically stating that the suspicion can not be based on race or ethnicity.
Very true. But seriously when the pro-illegal immigration side start suddenly caring if something is legal or not? Suddenly a lot of foreigners illegally here are claiming this new Arizona law isn't legal -- but why should THAT bother them?
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:09 PM
 
1,031 posts, read 1,923,183 times
Reputation: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by specialrequest View Post
Your DUI checkpoints analogy doesn't hold up- to use your analogy, this law as I understand it, would allow most cars to pass by the checkpoint without a care of stopping, with the checkpoint officers only stopping those driving brown cars-

Hey, if you aren't driving brown cars why worry? Cause next they might come for those driving red cars, or silver ones-
I don't think that's any more accurate analogy because I believe it misstates the AZ immigration law.

The way I understand this law, is they can NOT stop someone and ask for ID just because of the color of their skin. They have to have reasonable suspicion. Please correct me if the law permits stopping based on color of skin. I believe there are specific provisions making this unlawful behavior of the police (in which case any problems should be directed at the police, not the law).

If evidence of lack of citizenship is obtained only because of the color of skin, a defense lawyer should be able to throw it out of court, because it violates the AZ immigration bill itself. In addition, it violates several constitutional protections that states cannot (and I do not believe AZ has) legislate(d) around.

The case Terry vs. Ohio (Supreme Court 1968) essentially stands for the notion an officer may stop someone only if reasonable and articulable suspicion of criminal activity exists.

The government must point to specific and articulable facts, together with rational inferences drawn from those facts, that reasonably suggest criminal activity has occurred or is imminent.

An investigatory detention – a brief seizure by police based on reasonable suspicion of criminal activity – is a “narrowly drawn exception to the probable cause requirement of the Fourth Amendment” (US v. Sharpe, Supreme Court 1985).

On a separate front, is the widespread misunderstanding about DUI checkpoints.

That's my understanding, I reserve the right to update it as information unsurfaces.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:17 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 10,271,742 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Very true. But seriously when the pro-illegal immigration side start suddenly caring if something is legal or not? Suddenly a lot of foreigners illegally here are claiming this new Arizona law isn't legal -- but why should THAT bother them?
Ironic, isn't it?
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Wasilla, Alaska
17,852 posts, read 18,206,019 times
Reputation: 6445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post
I don't think that's any more accurate analogy because I believe it misstates the AZ immigration law.

The way I understand this law, is they can NOT stop someone and ask for ID just because of the color of their skin. They have to have reasonable suspicion. Please correct me if the law permits stopping based on color of skin. I believe there are specific provisions making this unlawful behavior of the police (in which case any problems should be directed at the police, not the law).

If evidence of lack of citizenship is obtained only because of the color of skin, a defense lawyer should be able to throw it out of court, because it violates the AZ immigration bill itself. In addition, it violates several constitutional protections that states cannot (and I do not believe AZ has) legislate(d) around.

The case Terry vs. Ohio (Supreme Court 1968) essentially stands for the notion an officer may stop someone only if reasonable and articulable suspicion of criminal activity exists.

The government must point to specific and articulable facts, together with rational inferences drawn from those facts, that reasonably suggest criminal activity has occurred or is imminent.

An investigatory detention – a brief seizure by police based on reasonable suspicion of criminal activity – is a “narrowly drawn exception to the probable cause requirement of the Fourth Amendment” (US v. Sharpe, Supreme Court 1985).

On a separate front, is the widespread misunderstanding about DUI checkpoints.

That's my understanding, I reserve the right to update it as information unsurfaces.
You are quite correct. I would only like to add that in Hiibel v. Sixth District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004) the Supreme Court held that State laws that require someone stopped by law enforcement to properly identify themselves does not violate the 4th Amendment or the 5th Amendment. However, that form of identification need not be anything more than one's legal and proper name. No IDs are required, no proof of citizenship, nothing any of the detractors of the AZ law have erroneously claimed. Even if you have identification on you, if you are not operating a motorized vehicle, you are not required to produce that ID.

Anyone stopped by law enforcement should remain calm, professional, polite and not voluntarily waive any of their constitutionally protected rights. Give the law enforcement officer your full legal name when asked, and respectfully refuse to answer any additional questions.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:25 PM
 
47,578 posts, read 54,621,205 times
Reputation: 22044
And just like the police can have reasonable suspicion and check you out for drunkenness, they cannot just walk up to every person and start testing them for alcohol intoxication.

If you're caught jaywalking but weren't stumbling around they're not going to check you for anything but just write you a ticket for jaywalking. However if you're falling flat on your face, stumbling around and peeing your pants, they may start checking you out for public intoxication.

That's how reasonable suspicion works.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:25 AM
 
3 posts, read 2,148 times
Reputation: 11
To me, the most significant problem with the new law in Arizona is how it made two things obvious: People are extremely ignorant about the illegal immigrant problem and they are extremely ungrateful for living in a great country.

First of all, these people have been your neighbors, you gave jobs to some of these people, you used the services of some of them in one way or another, maybe you even befriended some of these people. How little the people in general know about them is just beyond me. Someone on this forum noted: "they refuse to become citizens and pay taxes". I do not mean to be rude, but I laughed when I read this. Most people think these people are invading the US and they are on a mission to ruin this country. Everyone is making claims about the "cost" these people bring on the American public - without any knowledge of finance whatsoever. Both online and in real life, this problem turned into one of those scary tales people tell each other. About a week ago, a friend of mine here told me "illegal mexicans send home $20 billion every year". As if this stat was not funny enough, yesterday I heard someone say "those illegal mexicans send home $65 billion a year". Now come on, do I even need to explain what bothers me about this situation? Most of these people would die for a chance to become American citizens and pay taxes. Hell, tell them they have to pay two times the taxes they would normally pay, they will jump on the offer! $20 billion may sound like a small number to most people here, but if someone gave that kind of money to Mexico, not every year either, just once... They would be richer than most of us here are. So come on, do not beat the problem with a stick and tell each other how scary it is. Read, research, learn and criticize. This is how you understand stuff, not by buying everything the government tells you. (Ever read Lord of the Flies? Most of you sound like the "mean kids" there!)

Right now, according to the new law in Arizona, I can be deported; did you know that? Do you know why? Because I came to Arizona on vacation, to spend time with my girlfriend who is studying here. I had a drivers license but I somehow should have misplaced it and now I do not have any form of ID on me. I am a student as well; paying taxes aside, I spend more than $70k a year on school and living expenses. So please cut that "freebies" crap with me. I abided every law there is regarding immigration, but now I am stuck in Arizona. Afraid to even leave the house, why? I can not even imagine the terror most of these people who are actually illegal aliens are feeling now!

Some of you could say that I am required to carry my immigration documents at all times, per federal immigration laws. I say "yeah right". There is a 2"x2" piece of paper called I94, which has your entry stamp on it. All that there is to this tiny piece of paper is that! A friend of mine once lost hers, and had to get a new one. Do you know how much the fees cost? More than $700. And the process takes about 4 months, during which you can not convince ANY federal agent that you are in the country legally.

Let me tell you something that most of you have no idea about, about the second part of what bothers me the most about this new law. You have no idea about the kind of place these people are coming from. I am from Turkey, and I really can not understand how anyone can support such a law in their country! You have no idea how these things work, that is why you are supportive of this law! You are lucky that you have a fourth amendment protecting your rights. By supporting this law, you are giving up some of those rights. You have no idea how easy it is to lose your rights to the government - because you have not experienced it yet. There is no government in the world that does not want more power over its citizens, and less privacy to its citizens, including the US. Today you say you are OK with being stopped at a checkpoint where you have to present your ID. Try refusing to answer the question "Are you an American citizen?" in one of those checkpoints. This is your right; but try to exercise that right and see what happens. This is the government taking back your rights - the rights your ancestors fought and died for. These are the rights that make America bigger than all the others. This is what makes America "land of the free". I know, because I am coming from a country where all this have been happening for decades, and I am not blinded by racism to the point where I fail to see that I am cutting my own leg to get rid of a sock.

There are illegal immigrants in prisons, there are illegal immigrant getting benefits from the government. (Blame them all you want. Just do not put all the blame on them, ASK YOUR POLITICIANS HOW THESE PEOPLE EARNED THOSE BENEFITS.) Your government knows where these people are. If your government wanted to actually solve the problem, and start from somewhere, they would be deporting these people now. They would concentrate their efforts to doing what they can, and start to actually solve this problem. Even if they started today, and no other illegal immigrants went to jail or started getting benefits from today on, IT WOULD TAKE YEARS to deport them all. And it would actually work towards a solution of the problem. Why, instead, do they want to stop you in the middle of a highway and have a dog sniff your car? Why do they want the authority to stop you while you are walking and ask you questions - for no reason? THEY ARE BEING LAZY. This is why. Instead of actually working and doing something to solve the problem, they are setting up checkpoints which cost a fortune to operate, and trying to catch a few fish! Funny how people support the government doing this. They refuse to approach the problem in a way they can solve it, they refuse to actually do what they are getting paid to do, instead they want to throw away your tax money into something that is: 1. Not efficient, 2. Useless, 3. A waste of money, 4. Costing you your rights.

Come on people, have you ever asked yourself why the "border" is 100 miles into the US soil than where it used to be? What they want to do falls just a little short of martial law; I have seen three coups, I would know. Somebody is using this illegal immigration problem for either one of a few possible reasons: They get funded better when the public is led to believe the problem is bigger than it really is. They are given more authority when the public is led to believe the problem is bigger than it really is. They actually do not have to deal with the real problems when the public is led to believe the problem is bigger than it really is. Maybe all of these reasons, who knows.

And right now, you are all for it! You are willing to trade your freedom for your security... You are scared into handing the government your rights; so much that you applaud when the government takes your rights away from you. I know most of you are going to think what is happening is no way as bad as I say it is. Well, it always starts from somewhere. You may be thinking "once we get rid of these illegal immigrants, the government will not use checkpoints because they will not need 'em!" I say "Yeah, right". Believe me, by then you all will have gotten used to them, and THE GOVERNMENT WILL KEEP THEM, they will just call them "routine checks". They will be a part of your lives and who knows; you will probably be stripped of the rights you can exercise to protest the existence of those checkpoints by then. I have seen all this happen, I would know.

Come on people, I expected a lot more from you!

Last edited by iamseriouslypissedoff; 05-15-2010 at 09:39 AM..
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Old 05-15-2010, 02:46 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 10,271,742 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamseriouslypissedoff View Post
To me, the most significant problem with the new law in Arizona is how it made two things obvious: People are extremely ignorant about the illegal immigrant problem and they are extremely ungrateful for living in a great country.

First of all, these people have been your neighbors, you gave jobs to some of these people, you used the services of some of them in one way or another, maybe you even befriended some of these people. How little the people in general know about them is just beyond me. Someone on this forum noted: "they refuse to become citizens and pay taxes". I do not mean to be rude, but I laughed when I read this. Most people think these people are invading the US and they are on a mission to ruin this country. Everyone is making claims about the "cost" these people bring on the American public - without any knowledge of finance whatsoever. Both online and in real life, this problem turned into one of those scary tales people tell each other. About a week ago, a friend of mine here told me "illegal mexicans send home $20 billion every year". As if this stat was not funny enough, yesterday I heard someone say "those illegal mexicans send home $65 billion a year". Now come on, do I even need to explain what bothers me about this situation? Most of these people would die for a chance to become American citizens and pay taxes. Hell, tell them they have to pay two times the taxes they would normally pay, they will jump on the offer! $20 billion may sound like a small number to most people here, but if someone gave that kind of money to Mexico, not every year either, just once... They would be richer than most of us here are. So come on, do not beat the problem with a stick and tell each other how scary it is. Read, research, learn and criticize. This is how you understand stuff, not by buying everything the government tells you. (Ever read Lord of the Flies? Most of you sound like the "mean kids" there!)

Right now, according to the new law in Arizona, I can be deported; did you know that? Do you know why? Because I came to Arizona on vacation, to spend time with my girlfriend who is studying here. I had a drivers license but I somehow should have misplaced it and now I do not have any form of ID on me. I am a student as well; paying taxes aside, I spend more than $70k a year on school and living expenses. So please cut that "freebies" crap with me. I abided every law there is regarding immigration, but now I am stuck in Arizona. Afraid to even leave the house, why? I can not even imagine the terror most of these people who are actually illegal aliens are feeling now!

Some of you could say that I am required to carry my immigration documents at all times, per federal immigration laws. I say "yeah right". There is a 2"x2" piece of paper called I94, which has your entry stamp on it. All that there is to this tiny piece of paper is that! A friend of mine once lost hers, and had to get a new one. Do you know how much the fees cost? More than $700. And the process takes about 4 months, during which you can not convince ANY federal agent that you are in the country legally.

Let me tell you something that most of you have no idea about, about the second part of what bothers me the most about this new law. You have no idea about the kind of place these people are coming from. I am from Turkey, and I really can not understand how anyone can support such a law in their country! You have no idea how these things work, that is why you are supportive of this law! You are lucky that you have a fourth amendment protecting your rights. By supporting this law, you are giving up some of those rights. You have no idea how easy it is to lose your rights to the government - because you have not experienced it yet. There is no government in the world that does not want more power over its citizens, and less privacy to its citizens, including the US. Today you say you are OK with being stopped at a checkpoint where you have to present your ID. Try refusing to answer the question "Are you an American citizen?" in one of those checkpoints. This is your right; but try to exercise that right and see what happens. This is the government taking back your rights - the rights your ancestors fought and died for. These are the rights that make America bigger than all the others. This is what makes America "land of the free". I know, because I am coming from a country where all this have been happening for decades, and I am not blinded by racism to the point where I fail to see that I am cutting my own leg to get rid of a sock.

There are illegal immigrants in prisons, there are illegal immigrant getting benefits from the government. (Blame them all you want. Just do not put all the blame on them, ASK YOUR POLITICIANS HOW THESE PEOPLE EARNED THOSE BENEFITS.) Your government knows where these people are. If your government wanted to actually solve the problem, and start from somewhere, they would be deporting these people now. They would concentrate their efforts to doing what they can, and start to actually solve this problem. Even if they started today, and no other illegal immigrants went to jail or started getting benefits from today on, IT WOULD TAKE YEARS to deport them all. And it would actually work towards a solution of the problem. Why, instead, do they want to stop you in the middle of a highway and have a dog sniff your car? Why do they want the authority to stop you while you are walking and ask you questions - for no reason? THEY ARE BEING LAZY. This is why. Instead of actually working and doing something to solve the problem, they are setting up checkpoints which cost a fortune to operate, and trying to catch a few fish! Funny how people support the government doing this. They refuse to approach the problem in a way they can solve it, they refuse to actually do what they are getting paid to do, instead they want to throw away your tax money into something that is: 1. Not efficient, 2. Useless, 3. A waste of money, 4. Costing you your rights.

Come on people, have you ever asked yourself why the "border" is 100 miles into the US soil than where it used to be? What they want to do falls just a little short of martial law; I have seen three coups, I would know. Somebody is using this illegal immigration problem for either one of a few possible reasons: They get funded better when the public is led to believe the problem is bigger than it really is. They are given more authority when the public is led to believe the problem is bigger than it really is. They actually do not have to deal with the real problems when the public is led to believe the problem is bigger than it really is. Maybe all of these reasons, who knows.

And right now, you are all for it! You are willing to trade your freedom for your security... You are scared into handing the government your rights; so much that you applaud when the government takes your rights away from you. I know most of you are going to think what is happening is no way as bad as I say it is. Well, it always starts from somewhere. You may be thinking "once we get rid of these illegal immigrants, the government will not use checkpoints because they will not need 'em!" I say "Yeah, right". Believe me, by then you all will have gotten used to them, and THE GOVERNMENT WILL KEEP THEM, they will just call them "routine checks". They will be a part of your lives and who knows; you will probably be stripped of the rights you can exercise to protest the existence of those checkpoints by then. I have seen all this happen, I would know.

Come on people, I expected a lot more from you!
I suggest you go back to Turkey since you think so little of this country and its right to enforce the law.
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:41 PM
 
5,358 posts, read 5,768,965 times
Reputation: 4891
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamseriouslypissedoff View Post
Right now, according to the new law in Arizona, I can be deported; did you know that? Do you know why? Because I came to Arizona on vacation, to spend time with my girlfriend who is studying here. I had a drivers license but I somehow should have misplaced it and now I do not have any form of ID on me. I am a student as well; paying taxes aside, I spend more than $70k a year on school and living expenses. So please cut that "freebies" crap with me. I abided every law there is regarding immigration, but now I am stuck in Arizona. Afraid to even leave the house, why? I can not even imagine the terror most of these people who are actually illegal aliens are feeling now!
You should be pissed off at those who misinformed on the actual law. If you are here legally, than your information is in one of many databases that the officer can access either by radio contct or now many have computers in their patrol cars for quick access. If for some reason you are stopped for an investigation of a crime (not based on legal residence) and forgot your ID, the officer will simply take your name, dob and run it in the databse.

You have been duped by the media and pro-illegal crowd. Please try reading the law yourself.
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:50 PM
 
438 posts, read 408,299 times
Reputation: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
This is how the law reads in part:

ARTICLE 8. ENFORCEMENT OF IMMIGRATION LAWS
11-1051. Cooperation and assistance in enforcement of immigration laws; indemnification

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

How you establish a constitutional standard for reasonable suspicion is beyond me.
What do they define as "lawfull contact"?

Do they mean police can only check the legal status of an individual if that person has been stopped for some other offense?

or

Can a police officer approach anyone on the street or stop them in their car and ask for proof of legal residence even though this person has not committed any offense.


I think it is the first one because years before this new law, Arizona and some other states already allowed law enforcement to check a person's legal status AFTER they are stopped for some other offense.
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Old 05-15-2010, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,051 posts, read 18,762,140 times
Reputation: 8069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch View Post
All AZ law requires is that you properly identify yourself when stopped by law enforcement. Which simply means you are required to tell law enforcement your name. No identification is required. There is no obligation on the part of anyone stopped by AZ police to prove anything.
That is NOT TRUE, you are required to present proof of Citizenship.
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