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Old 05-18-2010, 11:42 AM
 
1,031 posts, read 2,020,967 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepejeep View Post
Simply from someone who can READ! If you come across anything questionable, you can look it up to see if it's in any way illegal. You gotta do a little research. Try it, it's fun to learn some truth.
If it was that clear cut, there wouldn't be a controversy. It's hard for some to understand why controversy exists in other statutes, but they do. There exists an argument against it. Whether judges buy it, is another story.

When I do legal research, I first focus on the clients who pay me. When I have the time and inclination to use my research for a hobby, I'll do so... There are several, not necessarily you, who are presumptuous because of partisan ideology on both sides.
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,311 posts, read 18,849,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post
FWIW, I know many bright people who volunteer that information. It comes with upbringing, and the sense that law enforcement should be respected, even if they don't always comport themselves respectably. It may be naivete, but it isn't lack of intelligence. Many of these folks also come from other nations. My parents would quickly volunteer the information. One is a cytogeneticist. The other is a physics professor. I also know many folks from the WWII generation and their children who share that mentality as well. It took me 25 years to wean myself off of this mentality and into wilful, deliberate, but careful cooperation and respect.

I think the combination of immediate shock of seeing the lights and/or the badge and a certain naivete in our upbringing often overcome the awareness and assertion of our rights (I've told several of my friends to invoke their rights over and over, and still in the moment, they take the way out that is immediately easy, but may be long term more difficult), unless we are trained in experiencing that, and responding shrewdly.
Thank you for the fair post.
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:47 AM
 
Location: NY
2,007 posts, read 3,356,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post
If it was that clear cut, there wouldn't be a controversy. It's hard for some to understand why controversy exists in other statutes, but they do. There exists an argument against it. Whether judges buy it, is another story.

When I do legal research, I first focus on the clients who pay me. When I have the time and inclination to use my research for a hobby, I'll do so... There are several, not necessarily you, who are presumptuous because of partisan ideology on both sides.
But it IS clear cut to anyone who actually reads the bill! There are politicians who admit they haven't read it yet are criticizing it!
Nice dodge on the research comment though.
I presume nothing as I have read the bill and understand it's meaning and have found the critics of the bill are either completely clueless or outright lying.
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,311 posts, read 18,849,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabluey View Post
FWIW, I know many bright people who volunteer that information. It comes with upbringing, and the sense that law enforcement should be respected, even if they don't always comport themselves respectably. It may be naivete, but it isn't lack of intelligence. Many of these folks also come from other nations. My parents would quickly volunteer the information. One is a cytogeneticist. The other is a physics professor. I also know many folks from the WWII generation and their children who share that mentality as well. It took me 25 years to wean myself off of this mentality and into wilful, deliberate, but careful cooperation and respect.

I think the combination of immediate shock of seeing the lights and/or the badge and a certain naivete in our upbringing often overcome the awareness and assertion of our rights (I've told several of my friends to invoke their rights over and over, and still in the moment, they take the way out that is immediately easy, but may be long term more difficult), unless we are trained in experiencing that, and responding shrewdly.
As you said many of us just don't feel the need to challenge authority when we know that we have broken know laws or have nothing to hide. Those who served in the Military like myself have no issue with authority most of the time. Thats not to say that we won't challenge a cop when we think they are in the wrong. I know that both my friend and myself both have on occasion.
It also comes down to is it worth the problems that may follow? 1900 miles from home. Do I really want to get into a chest thumping match with a cop simply because they asked for my ID? Not really. I tend to pick and chose my battles based on merit or probability of success, not to mention potential cost.
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Old 05-18-2010, 11:56 AM
 
1,038 posts, read 1,029,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
What led up to the request?
Using a slim jim to unlock a car door? Hey its my car!! I would want the police to verify that fact.
In my friends case.
Looking under cars at 11pm at night. I would hope that the police would question his motives and what he was up too.
Isn't that part of what we pay them to do? Observe and confront suspicious behaviors?
So yes I agree that the police can ask you to identify yourself when you are doing something that provokes suspicion. In fact I think that they should be fired if they don't.
Asking you to identify yourself is one thing, asking you to verify your residency status is another. If I'm in the alley behind my garage with a flashlight at 2am looking for my car keys, I have no problem with the cops questioning me. What I do have a problem is them asking me for my residency status. Question me for the crime in question, not some other crime. What does immigration have to do with the fact that I'm in the alley at 2am?
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Pa
20,311 posts, read 18,849,751 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdencaulfield View Post
Asking you to identify yourself is one thing, asking you to verify your residency status is another. If I'm in the alley behind my garage with a flashlight at 2am looking for my car keys, I have no problem with the cops questioning me. What I do have a problem is them asking me for my residency status. Question me for the crime in question, not some other crime. What does immigration have to do with the fact that I'm in the alley at 2am?
LOL It seems to me that a good many illegals entered illegally at 2am or hours there about.
Unlike you I don't care if they ask me " Hey are you here legally"? I would break out laughing if they did as a matter of fact.
Some folks just don't sweat authority like others.
Now given your scenario. If a cop asked me what I was doing, where I lived, why I was out at 2am in an alley I would have no issues. If they asked oh by the way what do you call 600 hundred sailors when they come back from out to sea I would tell them to lick my dik. The reality is that aside from VA beach I have never been hassled by any cop. I have never felt the need to challenge them just to be a jerk about it. Why would I be offended if asked my legal status? Why take issue with a non-issue? I am legal and can prove it.
Ever notice that no one worries about getting robbed as much as a thief?
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:25 PM
 
1,038 posts, read 1,029,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
LOL It seems to me that a good many illegals entered illegally at 2am or hours there about.
Unlike you I don't care if they ask me " Hey are you here legally"? I would break out laughing if they did as a matter of fact.
Some folks just don't sweat authority like others.
Now given your scenario. If a cop asked me what I was doing, where I lived, why I was out at 2am in an alley I would have no issues. If they asked oh by the way what do you call 600 hundred sailors when they come back from out to sea I would tell them to lick my dik. The reality is that aside from VA beach I have never been hassled by any cop. I have never felt the need to challenge them just to be a jerk about it. Why would I be offended if asked my legal status? Why take issue with a non-issue? I am legal and can prove it.
Ever notice that no one worries about getting robbed as much as a thief?
What if the cop asked you if you are a pedophile, a child molester? What if he did this in front of your children, wife, family? Would this bother you. What if he asked you to prove it? What if he wanted to run your name through the database of sex offenders after he asked you this and deatined you? Are you fine with this?
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:54 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
12,775 posts, read 7,352,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdencaulfield View Post
What if the cop asked you if you are a pedophile, a child molester? What if he did this in front of your children, wife, family? Would this bother you. What if he asked you to prove it? What if he wanted to run your name through the database of sex offenders after he asked you this and deatined you? Are you fine with this?
You are incredibly filled with 'what ifs'.
The simple fact is that the only people who fear a law are the criminals.
That is the mindset of Americans; that is the way we were taught and how we grew up.

Maybe it is different where you were raised.
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:58 PM
 
1,038 posts, read 1,029,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox Terrier View Post
You are incredibly filled with 'what ifs'.
The simple fact is that the only people who fear a law are the criminals.
That is the mindset of Americans; that is the way we were taught and how we grew up.

Maybe it is different where you were raised.
Does this include laws banning hand guns? What about the new health insurance law requiring all Americans to purchase health care? This law too? The law requiring people to fill out the Census completely, that law as well? Are all those people criminals. I notice very few, including yourself didn't bother to respond to the OP. Does this bill allow the cops to search law abiding citizens.
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Oxygen Ln. AZ
9,321 posts, read 16,106,688 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdencaulfield View Post
Many on here claim that only illegal immigrants will be subject to the law. My understanding of the bill is that police can search anyone and demand to see proof of citizenship, including pedestrians. Which one is it? Is this law only for illegals or for anyone suspect? Are you required to carry a drivers license if you don't drive? If in fact the police have a right to search law abiding citizens who have commited no crime, is this constitutional?
The bill does not state that only Mexicans will be questioned. They protest too much I think.

We were questioned at the border check point and asked for our I.D's and we are all the color of pasta. We did not protest.
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