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Old 04-26-2010, 02:47 PM
 
Location: 36 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of Long Island, New York
19,922 posts, read 11,295,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamSmyth View Post
And if the police don't accept your ID or documents, how long should they be able to hold you?
good reason for a national Id, wouldnt you say

we need a national Id, have for years...but the politicians, and whiners wont do it
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: California
28,850 posts, read 29,446,168 times
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I guess we will have to see how this is actually applied in AZ.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:10 PM
 
14,175 posts, read 13,646,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
If your a legal citizen, you have documents to prove it so...so carry them...what's the big problem...until we get this under control again...I carry ID all the time...what's so difficult about that....and If I'm asked would gladly show my ID...
The only documents that prove it are passport, birth certificate or certificate of naturalization.

I live 100 miles north of Phoenix. So, are you telling me that if I go down to Phoenix for the day, I need to carry one of those documents as well as my drivers license? Maybe we should just have the government implant microchips in us to make life easier.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Maine
898 posts, read 1,136,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
good reason for a national Id, wouldnt you say

we need a national Id, have for years...but the politicians, and whiners wont do it
There is no constitutional authority for the federal government to mandate people to have any form of identification. I have every right to remain anonymous in my daily business when I am doing no wrong. But how do they know I'm doing know wrong? There's that other darned part of the constitution statists like yourself try to ignore, the presumption of innocence.

I am innocent of any and all wrongdoing, period, until it is proven otherwise.

Presumption of innocence means I am under no obligation to prove innocence to anyone, I am innocent until the accuser proves that I am not.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:17 PM
 
31,384 posts, read 29,091,951 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melinuxfool View Post
Presumption of innocence means I am under no obligation to prove innocence to anyone, I am innocent until the accuser proves that I am not.
That is an incredibly important point that everyone, including myself have miserably failed to point out.

Even under the latest decision the Supreme Court in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004) requires a person to identify themselves by giving their name, and not much else. If resident status is to be proven it is the state that bears that burden.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:24 PM
 
14,175 posts, read 13,646,541 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
That is an incredibly important point that everyone, including myself have miserably failed to point out.

Even under the latest decision the Supreme Court in Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004) requires a person to identify themselves by giving their name, and not much else. If resident status is to be proven it is the state that bears that burden.
This is the big problem I have with this law. While I am in favor or immigration law reform, this law is too catch-all. It targets everyone, illegal or not and moves the burden of proof onto them and not onto the state.

I am a US citizen. I should not have to prove it while going about my lawful business in the USA.
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Old 04-26-2010, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Central Maine
4,576 posts, read 4,993,671 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holdencaulfield View Post
As long as you are not breaking a law, you are not required to show identification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melinuxfool View Post
It looks like in Arizona, the only obligation is for you to state your name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
So what happens. You get stopped by a cop. You show them your drivers license. But it does not confirm your status. So what does the cop do then? Hold you in jail, let you go?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
So what happens when a US citizen gets stopped and they do not have id on them that proves their status?
Well, here's what happened with one U.S. citizen.
PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.
Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.
Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option.
And, even more disturbing to anyone who believes in the Constitution:
A representative at U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) returned 3TV’s calls after researching the incident and she said this was standard operating procedure. The agents needed to verify Abdon was in the country legally and it is not uncommon to ask for someone's birth certificate. She also said this has nothing to do with the proposed bill or racial profiling.
Truck driver forced to show birth certificate claims racial-profiling | Phoenix News | Arizona News | azfamily.com | Arizona News

Did someone mention the presumption of innocence?

How many people carry their birth certificate with them? If you're Latino, or look Latino, and you're in Arizona, you damn well better, whether you're "legal" or not.
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:13 AM
 
22,626 posts, read 20,844,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamSmyth View Post
What if the detain you for 24 hours because they suspect you are here illegally and refuse to accept whatever identification you have on you and they don't suspect you of any other crime? Are you still OK with that? How long should they be able to detain you based on their suspicions alone?
Oh will you stop? If they're going to detain people, it's going to be Mexican's who are living in Arizona...and as I said before, this has gone way to far...well over the top and financially breaking Arizona...and our country...

If my son stops any one for a traffic violation, he has the right to find out if this person is illegal, and if they are, they should be sent back, do not pass go, do not collect 2oo.oo. Illegal means, they are in this country illegally and there is, & should be a law against that...

All they're going to do, is ask people for ID...so, you better make certain you have the proper ID on your person is all...and if you don't...tough...things have got to change and soon, because our country is going broke.

Let me ask you a question...you mean to tell me, if you go to visit another country, your not going to make sure you have the proper ID on you, so you don't get stopped at customes, in or out...or thrown in jail while there?
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:49 AM
 
Location: 3rd rock from the sun
3,858 posts, read 5,665,573 times
Reputation: 1804
Quote:
If my son stops any one for a traffic violation, he has the right to find out if this person is illegal,
Checking if someone is illegal is not secondary. Police can stop someone who they suspect of being illegal.

Also , police departments will be under pressure because they can now be sued if someone thinks they are not doing a proper job catching illegals. Penalties include paying the lawyer fees of the complainant.

Guess who helped write the law? Lawyers from FAIR - the Federation for American Immigration Reform -
who will make out like bandits filing law suits and collecting fees. The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR):

April 26: Rachel Maddow exposes the origins of Arizona's new immigration law in the racist Federation for American Immigration Reform. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908...91568#36791568
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:59 AM
 
Location: York, PA
2,468 posts, read 4,818,598 times
Reputation: 2214
Quote:
Originally Posted by cremebrulee View Post
i want the government to do they're job...and our immigration laws to be as they were in place many years ago, before things got out of hand...this is absoultely ridiculous...no, I don't want the government to take away our right, however, there has to be some lines drawn to keep a country from getting chaotic...

The government is why all these people are here illegally...
My son pulls a guy over for DUI, he doesn't have a license, he doesn't have insurance, he cannot speak English..it is against the law for my son to ask for proof of citizen ship, who cares? The guy is breaking the law???? Our laws are crazy, and illogical...and protects the criminals...?

and yanno what, those people who are here legally feel the same way I do, they worked very hard to become a citizen...they are appauled at the gall of illegals, even having the nerve to protest...you go to any other country and see if you get away with that...

Our country is in dire straits...and no body seems to care...just print more money, and give things away....we're fighting a war that we won't win...and spending millions on subcontractors over there...and we're giving so many freebees out, that when the citizens of the U.S. go thru loosing they're homes to tornados, hurricanes, etc...we have no money to help them????????
Creme..I can say without a doubt that the majority of us want our government and elected officials to perform their duties. However, the problem I have with this law is that it is subject to rampant abuse and misuse, espeically when skin color and ethnicity will without a doubt be the basis for such arbitrary stops. Anyone who thinks this law is not about profiling and discrimination is in serious denial.

As a natural born U.S. citizen, military veteran and taxpayer, yes, I am outraged by the illegal immigration problem, but on the other hand, I'm also concerned that my and the rights of others who are here lawfully and legally could be violated merely because we possess physical characteristics tha could give police "reasonable" suspicicion that we do not.

My primary concern is that the law, once it takes effect in other parts of the country, will not be enforced fairly and civily.
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