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Old 04-30-2010, 03:38 AM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,061,455 times
Reputation: 2049

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My opposition to illegal immigration is rooted in sovereignty. I've stated my position on several occasions, but to sum up; a self-governing people have a right to control their borders. This is a basic principle that extends to not only nations, but all democratic entities, and to the individual himself. That said, it disheartens me to see our national sovereignty violated, by both those who cross and those who exploit their labor. But that doesn't anger me. Truth be told, I don't blame either the illegals nor the businesses that hire them. I blame the government. Indeed, if the IRS suddenly stopped enforcing tax law, many if not most of us would take advantage of such a situation. Doesn't make it moral. Doesn't make it right. But we are all human, and I wouldn't blame anyone for not paying his taxes if he could so easily get away with it.

What angers me is being called a racist for my opposition, clearly stated above. I am vehemently anti-racist. My two best riding buddies are black and hispanic. I refuse to patronize a local bar because of the racist clientele it attracts. I hate racists. Yet, according to those who have issue with my position, I am a racist.

Usually following the cries of racism are accusations of not opposing the businesses that exploit illegal labor. As I stated in my opening, I oppose all players in the game, especially government. However, I don't see businessmen marching in the street calling me anti- free market. Even if they did, being anti-business is not a hateful, ugly position to hold, false as it may be. Furthermore, when businesses are targeted, those who have issue with my position continue to scream racism. No matter what measures are taken to curb illegal immigration, there are those who march in the streets calling me racist for supporting such measures. That's what angers me, and those are the people who anger me.

So, if you think you have me cornered in a debate with "Why don't you go after businesses instead of people?" you have your answer above. Stop calling me a racist, and I will stop being angry at you. Then, and only then, can we have a reasonable discussion on how to solve all of our problems.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:14 AM
 
36 posts, read 56,031 times
Reputation: 15
I'm sorry to break it to ya man but there all already here anyway like five years ago. This is old news. Im a white guy not hispanic I dont think your racist but like I said there already all here anyway so we might as well get along with em. It's sad kind of they already took all the unskilled and skilled labor jobs away from ppl like myself and I guess you to that were red blooded americans that were already born here. It's a major lowblow to the red blooded american. What makes it so hilarious is that if I were to go to Columbia Peru hell or even Mexico I'd get shot on sight by there border control. Shrugs. Very depressing issue.
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,813,362 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo1052001 View Post
I'm sorry to break it to ya man but there all already here anyway like five years ago. This is old news. Im a white guy not hispanic I dont think your racist but like I said there already all here anyway so we might as well get along with em. It's sad kind of they already took all the unskilled and skilled labor jobs away from ppl like myself and I guess you to that were red blooded americans that were already born here. It's a major lowblow to the red blooded american. What makes it so hilarious is that if I were to go to Columbia Peru hell or even Mexico I'd get shot on sight by there border control. Shrugs. Very depressing issue.
The fact that they are “already here” is irrelevant. Rapists, murderers, and other sundry miscreants are also “already here.” Does that negate their detriment to society? Should we simply rescind all laws and embrace those who choose to violate them?
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:46 AM
 
4,828 posts, read 6,791,262 times
Reputation: 620
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
My opposition to illegal immigration is rooted in sovereignty. I've stated my position on several occasions, but to sum up; a self-governing people have a right to control their borders. This is a basic principle that extends to not only nations, but all democratic entities, and to the individual himself. That said, it disheartens me to see our national sovereignty violated, by both those who cross and those who exploit their labor. But that doesn't anger me. Truth be told, I don't blame either the illegals nor the businesses that hire them. I blame the government. Indeed, if the IRS suddenly stopped enforcing tax law, many if not most of us would take advantage of such a situation. Doesn't make it moral. Doesn't make it right. But we are all human, and I wouldn't blame anyone for not paying his taxes if he could so easily get away with it.

What angers me is being called a racist for my opposition, clearly stated above. I am vehemently anti-racist. My two best riding buddies are black and hispanic. I refuse to patronize a local bar because of the racist clientele it attracts. I hate racists. Yet, according to those who have issue with my position, I am a racist.

Usually following the cries of racism are accusations of not opposing the businesses that exploit illegal labor. As I stated in my opening, I oppose all players in the game, especially government. However, I don't see businessmen marching in the street calling me anti- free market. Even if they did, being anti-business is not a hateful, ugly position to hold, false as it may be. Furthermore, when businesses are targeted, those who have issue with my position continue to scream racism. No matter what measures are taken to curb illegal immigration, there are those who march in the streets calling me racist for supporting such measures. That's what angers me, and those are the people who anger me.

So, if you think you have me cornered in a debate with "Why don't you go after businesses instead of people?" you have your answer above. Stop calling me a racist, and I will stop being angry at you. Then, and only then, can we have a reasonable discussion on how to solve all of our problems.
The problem is on both sides IMO, people on your side of the argument also love to call names and label anyone who doesn't agree with them on this issue negatively.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:36 AM
 
Location: ...at a 3AM epiphany
2,206 posts, read 2,138,154 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by blacknight04 View Post
The problem is on both sides IMO, people on your side of the argument also love to call names and label anyone who doesn't agree with them on this issue negatively.
What are these names you claim to be called by those who want our laws enforced?
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Old 04-30-2010, 10:15 AM
 
264 posts, read 390,261 times
Reputation: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvxplorer View Post
So, if you think you have me cornered in a debate with "Why don't you go after businesses instead of people?" you have your answer above. Stop calling me a racist, and I will stop being angry at you. Then, and only then, can we have a reasonable discussion on how to solve all of our problems.
I think everyone understands that undocumented immigration is both immoral and illegal. It's difficult to debate being in favor of something as such without having to restort to ad hominem attacks to demonize the opposition. In fact, it appears to be the only argumentive tool that the pro-illegal side has left. Read Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals".
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Old 04-30-2010, 11:07 AM
 
12,870 posts, read 12,773,798 times
Reputation: 4446
i will tell you what angers me also besides being accused of being a "racist" for wanting our laws actually enforced for a change.

the mexican president has the nerve to try and lecture us on morality and human rights, (unbelievable nerve) and our president will not defend this country.

i wish we had a leader who stood up to the mexican president and said, "you are out of line" and demanded an apology. there is no reason that we have to give mexico ANYTHING.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:13 PM
 
Location: 602/520
2,441 posts, read 5,934,015 times
Reputation: 1815
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
The fact that they are “already here” is irrelevant. Rapists, murderers, and other sundry miscreants are also “already here.” Does that negate their detriment to society? Should we simply rescind all laws and embrace those who choose to violate them?
The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants do not deserve to be compared to rapists, murderers, and sundry miscreants. This is racism at its finest. The majority of them hopped the border and walked across the Rio Grande for better jobs and better pay. If you were in their situation, you would do the same.

It is really odd to me how most of the Europeans who came through Ellis Island were also uneducated, poor, didn't speak a WORD of English, and some were even criminals in their home countries, but the descendants of those people are so against Mexicans and Central Americans coming to this country. If it was easier for these people to become citizens, just like how Europeans had to basically step off of a boat to become American citizens, we wouldn't have this problem.

People are not going to stop coming to this country. There is NO way this country can send 12 million people back to where they came from. Who would head up this task? Who would pay for the labor of finding these folks? How would you find all 12 million people? Who would pay for the plane tickets to return all these people home? So many questions, no logical answers.
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Helena, Montana
2,010 posts, read 2,042,585 times
Reputation: 780
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman View Post
The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants do not deserve to be compared to rapists, murderers, and sundry miscreants. This is racism at its finest. The majority of them hopped the border and walked across the Rio Grande for better jobs and better pay. If you were in their situation, you would do the same.
How is this "racism at it's finest"? There are illegals of EVERY race in the US. It becomes racism when you MAKE IT about race.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman

People are not going to stop coming to this country. There is NO way this country can send 12 million people back to where they came from. Who would head up this task? Who would pay for the labor of finding these folks? How would you find all 12 million people? Who would pay for the plane tickets to return all these people home? So many questions, no logical answers.
How many times is this asinine argument going to be made? Take away their government handouts and their ability to find work and they will leave. Case closed, cost is $0 just by enforcing our laws that already exist.
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Old 04-30-2010, 01:19 PM
 
9,742 posts, read 9,061,455 times
Reputation: 2049
Quote:
Originally Posted by enzo1052001 View Post
I'm sorry to break it to ya man but there all already here anyway like five years ago. This is old news. Im a white guy not hispanic I dont think your racist but like I said there already all here anyway so we might as well get along with em. It's sad kind of they already took all the unskilled and skilled labor jobs away from ppl like myself and I guess you to that were red blooded americans that were already born here. It's a major lowblow to the red blooded american. What makes it so hilarious is that if I were to go to Columbia Peru hell or even Mexico I'd get shot on sight by there border control. Shrugs. Very depressing issue.
I don't need to get along with anyone, but I'm easy going, and I do get along with most people. I won't...no...I can't get along with someone who calls me a racist.

As I stated in the OP, the issue for me is sovereignty. To drive this point home, I have every right to picket your business or home, chanting "Go back to Europe, you racist cracker." I do not have a right to pitch a tent on your property, even if my chants turned to, "Enzo is the best!" If I squatted on your land, and then when you asked me to leave, I called you a racist, would you be angry, or would you tell yourself to just get along with me because I'm already there? If you're not willing to cede your individual sovereignty, why should we cede our national sovereignty?

I try to be a principled person. I try not to pick and choose when a principle can be applied and when it can't. I try to apply principles across the board, at all times.
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