U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-01-2010, 01:48 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,774 posts, read 6,655,737 times
Reputation: 2856

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
Federal agents have been authorized to ask for proper ID when they reasonably suspect a person is an illegal alien, for more than 60 years. You never had a problem with that until today?

BTW, what gives you the idea the agent did NOT have reasonable grounds for asking? Do you think cops (Federal or otherwise) like getting sued by the hordes of lawyers and ACLU fascists that swarm around every case like this?

BTW, I was reading and analyzing the Constitution and the 10th amendment (correctly) when you were still playing with crayons (poorly). I suggest you try another argument.
No they haven't. I've always had a problem with it when they TRY to do it, even while it's illegal!

They HAD NO GROUNDS for asking. They do the things they do b/c they know 9 out of 10 times it won't be reported, and if it is, it can be stonewalled at HQ, and if it goes further, judges or DA's who are up for election will get pressured by the Union (which conservatives always seem to think are bad, until it's this type of situation), and they won't pursue it.

And if you've been analyzing the 10th amendment INCORRECTLY for that long, you should either buy the 'Dummy's guide to the Constitution' or just give up...CAUSE YOUR WRONG.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-01-2010, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
285 posts, read 458,290 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by dorock99 View Post
. The proper and more savvy thing to do would be to legalize all of these individuals and give the amnesty.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2010, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles, CA
285 posts, read 458,290 times
Reputation: 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by dorock99 View Post
This was a poorly thought out analogy to what's going for many of the following reasons.

If someone robbed a bank there's an actual cost to society, that can be assessed and valued at the time of the robbery. If he stole $100 bucks from a bank society's cost is $100 plus the additional cost to arrest, jail, and send him through the court system. The total cost of the initial crime might have only been $100, but the additional criminal/legal process might run the total cost up to $50,000 for a crime in which only $100 dollars was stolen. (In other words catching the criminal in this case proved to be much costlier than allowing him to go free and rely on insurance to cover the $100 dollars he/she stole.)
Using CA as an example,

"State welfare officials estimate that cutting off payments to illegal immigrants for their U.S.-born children could save about $640 million annually if it survives legal challenges.California has roughly 2.7 million illegal residents, according to an April 2009 report from the authoritative Pew Hispanic Center, accounting for about 7% of the state's population. State officials estimate that they add between $4 billion and $6 billion in costs, primarily for prisons and jails, schools and emergency rooms. Beyond those services, the illegal population adds to the overall cost of other parts of local government, from police and fire protection to highway maintenance and libraries."

Deficit may trigger anti-illegal immigration ballot measure - Los Angeles Times


In California, hospitals spent at least $1.02 billion last year on health care for illegal immigrants that was not reimbursed by federal or state programs, according to federal government estimates. Hospital officials there said the ailing health care system was being pushed to its limit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us...gewanted=print (broken link)

Quote:
We know a large portion work at reduces wages, which has the effect of raising margins, for farmers, construction companies, and other industries that employ these individuals. We can agree whoever hires an illegal at a reduced wage is raising their margin and thus gaining higher, net income, contributing to higher tax payments to the state.
This depresses wages!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2010, 02:36 PM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
22,151 posts, read 26,616,225 times
Reputation: 6441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenyo View Post
A local cop is not a Federal Agent. Federal INS Agents are trained in how to deal with aliens legal or illegal. It's their specialty. Now, local Arizona cops with little training will be making these decisions in and amongst their usual policing duties. This is stupid. It's why the Arizon organization of police cheifs don't support the policy and why at least one sherrif wont be enforcing the illegitimate law.
Considering the fact that there are millions of illegal aliens in this country, it appears they could use some help dealing with them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2010, 04:43 PM
 
1,045 posts, read 1,102,718 times
Reputation: 296
Quote:
Originally Posted by basketballakev View Post
Using CA as an example,

"State welfare officials estimate that cutting off payments to illegal immigrants for their U.S.-born children could save about $640 million annually if it survives legal challenges.California has roughly 2.7 million illegal residents, according to an April 2009 report from the authoritative Pew Hispanic Center, accounting for about 7% of the state's population. State officials estimate that they add between $4 billion and $6 billion in costs, primarily for prisons and jails, schools and emergency rooms. Beyond those services, the illegal population adds to the overall cost of other parts of local government, from police and fire protection to highway maintenance and libraries."

Deficit may trigger anti-illegal immigration ballot measure - Los Angeles Times


In California, hospitals spent at least $1.02 billion last year on health care for illegal immigrants that was not reimbursed by federal or state programs, according to federal government estimates. Hospital officials there said the ailing health care system was being pushed to its limit.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us...gewanted=print (broken link)



This depresses wages!


basketballakev, thanks for quote from the times, but i think i mentioned there were negative cost associated with illegal immigrants. I also think this is one side of the story and only benefits those of us wanting to persuade individuals to get rid of them. However, there are always several sides to each story, so my focus was on the cost benefit analysis, so thanks for providing the cost.

I did a quick internet search and found the following articles


Report: Illegal immigrants contribute billions to state - Friday, May 23, 2008 | 2 a.m. - Las Vegas Sun


Illegal immigrants' value to economy? $1.8 trillion | Immigration Chronicles | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle

Report: Illegal immigrants contribute

"The story also pointed out that the Perryman Group, an economic research firm in Waco, estimates that the annual contribution to U.S. gross domestic product by illegal immigrants is $652 billion. The group also cites that the costs of education, health care and incarceration in six states, including Texas, is at least $27 billion."


basketballakev, like i said earlier it seems that most studies done on the cost/benefit analysis indicate most illegal immigrants contribute significantly in a positive way to the local/state/regional economy they reside in, so that begs the question, the cost is much easier to gather, because you can find information on government/state payments going to families who have legally born children but are illegally residing in the United States.

According to a few things I've read they contribute between 551 Billion and 1.8 Trillion dollars to the American economy, but they only cost tax payers a few billion, in social services cost. The greatest benefit of illegal labor is in Texas, California, and Arizona.

If these numbers are accurate basic math on this is pretty simple. I stand to gain 551 billion from your labor and you cost 200 Billion, well in that case it is a profitable gain for US citizens of some 350 billion, that would not exist in the economy if it were not for illegal aliens. In terms of GDP this is a relatively small number when matched up against 15 trillion (2% contribution).

The way I look at it is the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens work, buy goods in the United States, and contribute to the economy. While there are negative effects of illegal immigration on local/state/federal social services, there seems to be an overwhelming positive benefit.

I think it is short sighted not to allow these individuals to be citizens because of the following reasons.

1. The United States of America has an aging population (amnesty to illegal immigrants lowers the overall age of the US population, which means, there will be more younger workers supporting the aging baby boomer population. This is a win/win for everyone.

We currently have a shortage of younger workers in the labor force, because the United States has low birth rates, which have no kept pace with the previous baby boom. We are faced with a rather (fun situation depending on how you look at it), because we currently do not have the domestic capacity to produce a higher number of off spring to offset the aging population. Now, on the brighter end, this could be a challenge to most Americans to take a break from working so hard, grab a bottle of wine and throw on a "Let's get it on" soundtrack. But alas, that ain't happening too often.

This is not a problem solely experienced by the US, but tends to be a huge problem throughout the developed world, so unless we structure our immigration laws to bring in immigrants with higher birth rate and younger populations, we will continue to face an uphill battle maintaining social programs, that are heavily dependent on younger workers to fund transfer payments to an aging population. (like Social Security and Medicare to name a few)

Our goal over the next 20-30 years is to lower the overall age of the US population. The benefit to a lower overall age is the amount of time new individuals will pay transfer payments into the system. Right now, without the addition of immigrants, whether legal or illegal, many citizens face significant tax hikes on transfer payment to OASDI and Medicare. I strongly expect the rate to go up to 8% of your pay check in the near future.

2. Many small businesses, small farmers (that are already heavily subsidized by federal/state/local governments ), small business, and other industries, benefit heavily from reductions in salary expenses, due to the low wages illegal workers are paid. This has the benefit of raising margins, thus generating higher net profits, and more tax dollars, which go directly to the state budgets via higher tax revenue.

3. Illegal aliens also provide a great boost and benefit via consumerism. Illegals spend money in their local/town/state/ by paying rent, purchasing food, driving cars, paying gas, paying for public transit, and a number of other things they spend money on to survive. Most illegal immigrants consumption goes in the pockets of an American business owner (citizen) as well as to the state. Each time they buy a good or service these cash payments go to another business owner (ie American citizen directly, and also ends up in the state revenue numbers via sales tax)

4. - Bonus thought there is a political element to why the AZ law is stupid and will ultimately back fire and create very bad blood 20 years from now, but that's a topic for another discussion.

I agree with your last statement, but how is that a problem?

I agree illegal workers tend to push down wages, but you could easily make the argument that many blue collar workers tended to push wages significantly above what the true value of their labor was to their employer. This problem was caused by American Unions, which many American blue collar workers belong and are active members. I think if you did a cost benefit analysis the unions have wrecked far more damage on the American economy then illegal immigrants could ever do in 100 years.

I agree there are significant unintended cost to social services when illegal immigration is present, but there is clearly a much bigger benefit to the local, state, and US economy when illegals are allowed to work, make a living, and spend their hard earned dollars back into the economy. Illegal aliens tend to lower wages and also increase competition for jobs against domestic workers. However, the United States is an aging country with an aging workforce and a shortage of younger workers to fulfill social payments, so amnesty for the current illegal aliens is the best policy as of now. There is no point in creating new legislation, which could raise cost, prove very ineffective, and reduce overall productivity. American citizens need to take a more proactive stance on these issues without creating or incurring more significant cost to tax payers and fellow US Citizens.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat9.pdf (broken link)

Dorock99 (Amnesty, younger immigrants, higher overall birth rates, more productivity, lower overall cost for all Americans)

Last edited by dorock99; 05-01-2010 at 04:57 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2010, 04:52 PM
 
1,234 posts, read 1,029,549 times
Reputation: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
Take away the lies about AZ immigration law, and liberals will have nothing to say about it at all.

It’s amazing how many flat-out falsehoods the pro-illegal-immigrant advocates are telling about the new Arizona law.

FALSEHOOD: Arizona police can now walk up to anybody and demand, “Your papers, please!”
TRUTH: They are specifically forbidden to do that, by this very law. They can only ask people who they have already contacted for other, non-immigration purposes (speeding ticket, burglary bust, assault etc.). And even then, they must be able to show why they have a reasonable suspicion that the person might be an illegal alien. If they can’t show that, then they are STILL forbidden to ask for any immigration I.D. Police who do otherwise, are themselves in violation of the law, and can be prosecuted.

FALSEHOOD: This law gives illegal immigrants new things to be afraid of.
TRUTH: This law says nothing that hasn’t already been illegal for the last 70 years. It merely gives Arizona police the authority to enforce them. In fact, the Arizona law is IDENTICAL to Federal laws that have been on the books since 1940. The only difference is, Now Arizona police can enforce those provisions too… and the only thing Arizona police can do, is turn the illegal aliens over to Federal authorities. Arizona police cannot deport the illegal aliens or otherwise punish them.

FALSEHOOD: The new Arizona law is unconstitutional because only the Federal government can deal with immigration and border matters.
TRUTH: The Constitution says that the Federal government has the power to set uniform standards for immigration. By the 10th amendment, that removes this power from the states and forbids them to set such policy. But the Constitution does not forbid states from ENFORCING the policy that the Fed govt sets. And that’s all this new Arizona law does: Give Arizona police the authority to enforce laws that are IDENTICAL to the immigration laws Congress made back in the 1940s, and turn the illegal aliens over to Federal authorities. The Arizona law sets no new immigration policy or standards, and so fully complies with the Constitution.

FALSEHOOD: The new Arizona law is racist because it will crack down on Hispanics.
TRUTH: The new law applies to ANYONE who is found in this country illegally, whether it’s a Mexican citizen who walked across the border, or a Norwegian student who overstayed his visa, or a Chinese sailor who slid down the anchor chain of the Chinese freighter he crewed in Los Angeles and hitchhiked to his second-cousin’s house in Phoenix. In fact, the new law specifically forbids Arizona police from using race, ethnicity, etc. to identify a potential illegal alien… just as Federal law has always forbidden Federal agents from doing the same.

FALSEHOOD: Arizona police are already hassling and arresting people under this new law.
TRUTH: Not one Arizona cop in any jurisdiction, has arrested, detained, or even questioned any person under the new law. The law doesn’t even go into effect until the end of July, 2010.

These are just a few examples of the blizzard of fibs and falsehoods told by those who claim to oppose Arizona’s new immigration law. Without exception, every objection they raise, turns out to be something that isn’t in the law at all! And it often turns out that the law FORBIDS the very thing the people are complaining about, whether it’s racism, or randoms stops, or new powers that weren’t in the original Federal laws.

If you take away all the lies and misinformation about Arizona’s new law, the people complaining will find they have nothing to say about it at all!

The new law is no different from Federal laws that have been on the books for many decades… and have you heard these people complaining about those?

--------------------------------

The text of the new Arizona illegal-alien law can be found here:

Text of Arizona's Anti-Illegal Immigration Law - Part 1 | KEYTLaw

BTW, last night the liberal Juan Williams was interviewing some "Professor of Hispanic Studies" from UCLA. The guy was very much against the new AZ law. Williams pointed out that the new law reflected existing Federal law perfectly and didn't make anything illegal that wasn't already illegal for years. The "professor" insisted that wasn't true, and ranted about how draconian the new law was.

So Williams asked the professor to name one thing the new law made illegal, that wasn't illegal before under Federal law. The "professor" changed the subject and started complaining how expensive the enforcement would be. Williams brought him back to the subject and asked again to name one part of the AZ law etc. The "professor" changed the subject again and started complaining about something else unrelated. Three times, Williams asked him again, to name anything the AZ law made illegal that hadn't been previously. The "professor" duicked the question time and again, and never named anything.

These people don't even know what the law says, or what previous Federal laws have said for years! All they know are the talking points they have been fed.

The new AZ law does NOTHING except authorize its police to enforce the same laws that have been there for years. But catch some supposedly-knowledgable "opponent" admitting that... never!
I prefer we stay with your feed line. Take away the lies you made claim and liberals will have nothing to say about it at all. There is no reason. Can U spel DUH?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2010, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
41,314 posts, read 38,479,833 times
Reputation: 7106
I wonder if they realize this law mirrors the federal law?

The main reason they are so bent out of shape is the fact that the federal law is not enforced and this one will be.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2010, 05:09 PM
 
Location: California
29,597 posts, read 31,907,081 times
Reputation: 24731
Most "liberals" are not against fighting illegal immigration. I'm not even against this law and some consider me pretty liberal. I would hope that if/when any abuse of this law crops up it will be amended but only time will tell how this all shakes out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2010, 05:40 PM
 
1,234 posts, read 1,029,549 times
Reputation: 452
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene View Post
I wonder if they realize this law mirrors the federal law?

The main reason they are so bent out of shape is the fact that the federal law is not enforced and this one will be.
So saith the yet another Republican.

Let us waste taxpayer money and more time for redundancy. Phony protection of the bill of rights under the cloak of defense of freedom. Blame the Dems for Government interference. Whilst you do it without thought.

Fancy as all you Repubics may play to be, we are all visitors to the human condition.

Perhaps it is time to join with the rest of the world's peoples.

Then again perhaps not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-01-2010, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Northridge/Porter Ranch, Calif.
22,151 posts, read 26,616,225 times
Reputation: 6441
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtimer2 View Post
So saith the yet another Republican.

Let us waste taxpayer money and more time for redundancy. Phony protection of the bill of rights under the cloak of defense of freedom. Blame the Dems for Government interference. Whilst you do it without thought.

Fancy as all you Repubics may play to be, we are all visitors to the human condition.

Perhaps it is time to join with the rest of the world's peoples.

Then again perhaps not.
Do you think our country should enforce our immigration laws? It's not a Republican issue. Many Democrats do not approve of illegal aliens breaking our laws.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top