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Old 05-03-2010, 10:11 PM
 
4,101 posts, read 5,925,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
No one in America has been required to carry identity papers, except of course for free Negros prior to 1865. If you drive a car you have consented to carry an id, but, aside from that, well,
let me ask you, do you carry proof of citizenship with you?

I don't, and it is not now, nor ever has been a requirement in any state in this union. Arizona's law is a clear infringement of the fourth amendment.

My opinions have nothing to do with the merits or non merits of illegal immigration, but, are entirely based on the fourth amendment.

Here is some cynicism for you. One of the major backers of this bill is a law firm that specializes in handling immigration cases for cities and counties in Arizona, they are going to make a killing off this law.

My wife and I enjoy the Southwest, we enjoy the natural beauty and diverse culture of Arizona, mostly up in the north, the Grand Canyon, Hopi and Navajo reservations.

We have planned a trip to AZ for August, we will now make a few minor changes in our planning, as summed up in this text, which is the draft of the letter we will send to the AZ tourism dept, and to the great magazine, Arizona Highways.

Dear ......
Principles are what is important in life, I as a Vietnam Veteran am especially cognizant of the rights and privileges of being an American Citizen. One of those rights includes not having to carry identity papers to prove my citizenship to law enforcement, as did the citizens of Germany under the Nazis and as did the citizens of the Soviet Union, and as now, do the citizens of the United States within the boundaries of the benighted state of Arizona.

We intend to spend two weeks in AZ this summer, but, as a protest against the adoption of an unAmerican law, as a protest against the affront to the Constitution of the United States,
we will not spend a penny in the once great state of AZ.
We will fuel our rig in Utah and or New Mexico (we buy a great deal of fuel)
we will buy groceries in Utah,
we will stay only on Federal land, parks and reservations,
we will shop for gifts and souvenirs only in Federal or Tribal shops.
We will not patronize Arizona restaurants, grocery stores, motels or hotels.

Each place we visit, we will make a judgment as to whether our dollars will contribute to the Arizona economy, if so, we shall not make that expenditure. We are encouraging others to do as we will.
My letter to the Arizona tourism dept will negate your letter. Too bad a few mis guided American citizens feel like you do. In my state if the police stop you for any reason, you had better be able to prove who you are. If you can't, they are going to start checking. Arizona's law doesn't require anyone to carry papers other than what they should already have. Someone has to take a stand and enforce the laws on Illegal Immigration. A criminal is a criminal, something needs to be done about the ones who are running free in this country and not in jail.
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Old 05-03-2010, 10:22 PM
 
4,101 posts, read 5,925,970 times
Reputation: 5637
Default Illegal immigration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Sorry bub, you done be incorrect. Now far be it for me to educate ya'll, but, it may be worth your while to educate yourself. I possess one piece of id that identifies me as a citizen of this country, and that is my passport, which I have never shown to get a credit card, or write a check, or get on an airplane or drive my car, or register any of my kids for school, or have utilities turned on an any of my new homes. Best think through that one again.



A long time ago I swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. With this law, we are seeing domestic enemies of the Constitution in action. Now my guess is a lot of these people like to stand around in groups with funny hats and talk about how much they love the Constitution. But, they are willing to pitch that puppy overboard to achieve their political ends.

They would be funny if they weren't so dangerous.

Now to specifics, I have no interest in protecting the rights of illegals, I (and you should) have a strong interest in protecting the rights of citizens, and in protecting the Constitution. In this country except as I stated above, no citizen has ever had to carry papers identifying him or herself as a citizen of the United States, when this law goes into effect in Arizona, each citizen will need to carry identity papers proving they have a right to be in this country.

And that folks, just ain't right.

Personally I think all 460,000 odd illegals in AZ should all, simultaneously enter police stations and sheriffs offices throughout Arizona. Now, that would be too funny, Since there are not near enough jail cells in the state to handle the 460,000 odd illegals, the Police would have to let the vast majority go home. And that would play well on the 6 o'clock news.
Clark you are wrong, wrong wrong, again!
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Old 05-04-2010, 01:44 AM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,857 posts, read 2,036,396 times
Reputation: 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Now, let me try something out on you, a minor change in wording, see how this works for you, see if you can detect the slippery slope ignoring the Constitution creates;

B. FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY
21 OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS
22 STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS A JEW PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE,
24 WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE JEWISH STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE
25 PERSON'S JEWISH STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
26 PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).
27 C. IF A JEW PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IS
28 CONVICTED OF A VIOLATION OF STATE OR LOCAL LAW, ON DISCHARGE FROM
29 IMPRISONMENT OR ASSESSMENT OF ANY FINE THAT IS IMPOSED, THE JEW SHALL BE
30 TRANSFERRED IMMEDIATELY TO THE CUSTODY OF THE UNITED STATES IMMIGRATION AND
31 CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT OR THE UNITED STATES CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION.
32 D. NOTWITHSTANDING ANY OTHER LAW, A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY MAY
33 SECURELY TRANSPORT AN JEW WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES
34 AND WHO IS IN THE AGENCY'S CUSTODY TO A FEDERAL FACILITY IN THIS STATE OR TO
35 ANY OTHER POINT OF TRANSFER INTO FEDERAL CUSTODY THAT IS OUTSIDE THE
36 JURISDICTION OF THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY.

That has been tried before, can you detect the basic Constitutional problem>
Yes, "being" Jewish is not against the law. Nor is it illegal to be a Catholic, a Hindu or a member of any other religion. Illegals come in all colors and all religions. Therefore, this law is only stating that to be "illegally in this state and/or country" is against the law - regardless of whether one is Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or even an atheist.
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,741,644 times
Reputation: 815
Quote:
In my state if the police stop you for any reason, you had better be able to prove who you are.
Ya'll still haven't figured it out have you, I could give a rats hind end for the plight of the illegals, nothing I have said is in any way supportive of illegals

I would have thought that simple reading skills would have shown that.

Look people, it is not to thhe illegals that the law violates the fourth amendment, it is citizens.. Let me say that again, the AZ law violates the fourth amendment because of the effect it has on citizens. That this is not as plain as the nose on your all's faces is beyond me.

Quote:
In my state if the police stop you for any reason, you had better be able to prove who you are.
Criminy, in no state in this union do you have to provide proof of legal residency or citizenship when the police stop you, the exception now will be Arizona. And you cannot understand the simple Constitutional concept that that is unreasonable search?
It is unreasonable because it has never been required except for free Blacks prior to 1865 and it applies to only one state.

This is what the Supreme Court will use to declare the law unconstitutional, those of you who think that somehow my comments are about illegals really need to place your heads in the sunshine.

Again, clearly, I care about citizens, and I care about the Constitution, I do not care about illegals.

And by golly, if the government can require you to carry proof of citizenship, we have entered a new and frightening era in America. What will be next?
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:04 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,192,202 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
Ya'll still haven't figured it out have you, I could give a rats hind end for the plight of the illegals, nothing I have said is in any way supportive of illegals

I would have thought that simple reading skills would have shown that.

Look people, it is not to thhe illegals that the law violates the fourth amendment, it is citizens.. Let me say that again, the AZ law violates the fourth amendment because of the effect it has on citizens. That this is not as plain as the nose on your all's faces is beyond me.



Criminy, in no state in this union do you have to provide proof of legal residency or citizenship when the police stop you, the exception now will be Arizona. And you cannot understand the simple Constitutional concept that that is unreasonable search?
It is unreasonable because it has never been required except for free Blacks prior to 1865 and it applies to only one state.

This is what the Supreme Court will use to declare the law unconstitutional, those of you who think that somehow my comments are about illegals really need to place your heads in the sunshine.

Again, clearly, I care about citizens, and I care about the Constitution, I do not care about illegals.

And by golly, if the government can require you to carry proof of citizenship, we have entered a new and frightening era in America. What will be next?
In Arizona a valid DL is proof of citizenship! In order to get one you have to show your birth certificate. How the law will work has been explained in here ad nauseum over and over. First, LE would have to stop you for an infraction of a law such as a traffic violation. Second, you would be asked for your DL (which is the same thing as now). Only if one cannot produce this valid I.D. will the question of status in this country come into play. So just where are citizen's rights being violated?

No one is going to be required to carry their birth certificate on them. Have you got it now? This tired argument is getting old.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Right where I want to be.
4,507 posts, read 7,851,416 times
Reputation: 3309
Then citizens rights have long been under assault not only in AZ but in any other state where you are required to show a drivers license when pulled over for a traffic stop or identify yourself to an officer who has reason to question you.

This has been the case for a very long time, probably in every state. Clarks....why are you only outraged now?
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Charleston, SC
5,615 posts, read 12,471,550 times
Reputation: 2525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post
Only 11 states issue driver's licenses to illegal aliens and Arizona is not one of them. In the other 39, a person must be a United States citizen in order to get a driver's license.
Beat me to it, the OP conveniently missed this subtle point regarding ID anyway.
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Old 05-04-2010, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Charleston, SC
5,615 posts, read 12,471,550 times
Reputation: 2525
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite Ryder View Post
...In my state if the police stop you for any reason, you had better be able to prove who you are...
Yep, they do ask who you are when you get stopped in Oregon. The nerve - asking not only the driver but all passengers too! What's even worse was that the state patrol officers I interacted with in NE Oregon were actually polite and understanding, of all things. Where's the misguided outrage over that?
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Central Coast
2,014 posts, read 4,741,644 times
Reputation: 815
1. Anyone who thinks a birth certificate is proof of citizenship will accept that Obama is a citizen right?
2. One does not have to be a citizen of the US to get a drivers license, aside from illegals there are many legal resident aliens with drivers licenses.
3. I have an Italian drivers license, but I am not a citizen nor a legal resident of Italy...

4. Those who support the AZ law support the enfringement of our rights as citizens.

5. While you may need a drivers license to operate a vehicle it is not now, nor ever has been (except as I have noted prior) a requirement to carry identification on your person.

6. Currently in AZ and the rest of the United States, and as long as there has been a United States, if you are walking, or taking a bus, or riding your bicycle, or riding a horse you are not and have not been required to carry papers identifying you as a citizen (aside from free blacks prior to 1865 as I have noted many times).

7. When the new law takes effect in AZ, it will be the only place and the only time in the history of the United States that a citizen must be able to prove they are a citizen.

8. It is completely beyond my understanding why there are not thousands of conservatives out in the streets protesting this violation of our basic rights as citizens.

9. Actually that is a bit of a falsehood, I understand exactly why thousands of conservatives are not out in the streets protesting this violation of our basic rights as citizens.

10. Ben Franklin stated, Those who will trade freedom for security deserve neither.

He understood that there are those who prefer security rather than freedom. I am not one of those, but, by the very nature of the psychological outlook of conservatives, they fear. and will, as seen by the full support of conservatives to this new restriction on the freedom of citizens to walk this nation without identity papers, sacrifice freedom for the illusion of security from the "menace" of the current group in question.

11. folks, remember, that this restriction on your freedom is done in the name of illegal aliens, may just be the start.
I imagine that the conservatives who support this law only accept the Bill of Rights when it suits them.
I imagine that the conservatives who support this law will support a national identity card, a national data base of everyone in this nation, and sooner or later, a microchip inserted in the derriere with all your citizenship, bank account, and police records if applicable.

It is a sad day when a person will happily trade freedom for security.

It is said that to an American freedom is liberty, but to a German Freedom is security. So, on we go.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:44 AM
 
Location: South Bay Native
13,081 posts, read 21,254,567 times
Reputation: 22591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarks View Post
1. Anyone who thinks a birth certificate is proof of citizenship will accept that Obama is a citizen right?
2. One does not have to be a citizen of the US to get a drivers license, aside from illegals there are many legal resident aliens with drivers licenses.
3. I have an Italian drivers license, but I am not a citizen nor a legal resident of Italy...

4. Those who support the AZ law support the enfringement of our rights as citizens.

5. While you may need a drivers license to operate a vehicle it is not now, nor ever has been (except as I have noted prior) a requirement to carry identification on your person.

6. Currently in AZ and the rest of the United States, and as long as there has been a United States, if you are walking, or taking a bus, or riding your bicycle, or riding a horse you are not and have not been required to carry papers identifying you as a citizen (aside from free blacks prior to 1865 as I have noted many times).

7. When the new law takes effect in AZ, it will be the only place and the only time in the history of the United States that a citizen must be able to prove they are a citizen.

8. It is completely beyond my understanding why there are not thousands of conservatives out in the streets protesting this violation of our basic rights as citizens.

9. Actually that is a bit of a falsehood, I understand exactly why thousands of conservatives are not out in the streets protesting this violation of our basic rights as citizens.

10. Ben Franklin stated, Those who will trade freedom for security deserve neither.

He understood that there are those who prefer security rather than freedom. I am not one of those, but, by the very nature of the psychological outlook of conservatives, they fear. and will, as seen by the full support of conservatives to this new restriction on the freedom of citizens to walk this nation without identity papers, sacrifice freedom for the illusion of security from the "menace" of the current group in question.

11. folks, remember, that this restriction on your freedom is done in the name of illegal aliens, may just be the start.
I imagine that the conservatives who support this law only accept the Bill of Rights when it suits them.
I imagine that the conservatives who support this law will support a national identity card, a national data base of everyone in this nation, and sooner or later, a microchip inserted in the derriere with all your citizenship, bank account, and police records if applicable.

It is a sad day when a person will happily trade freedom for security.

It is said that to an American freedom is liberty, but to a German Freedom is security. So, on we go.
The law doesn't state you have to prove you are a citizen, you can be a legal immigrant too. Clearly you didn't get the memo. Maybe read the law and then provide your points, because the ones you presented here don't hold any water in this thread.
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