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The thing is if all ethnic groups in this country have assimilated and I am talking about American citizens why would they need signs in their native langauges when even to become an American citizen you have to know English? I would say that most citizens and legal immigrants have enough command of the English langauge to be able to read a simple sign.
Why indeed. They do it largely because it is allowed to be done. It is not illegal...not yet anyway. And, on one hand, it is easier for them. I personally know people of several ethnicities whose family members (most often parents) have made the choice not to learn English (Filipino, Mexican, Dominican, Armenian, Chinese, Korean). Some have been here many years so the opportunity to learn was available and most of them are citizens. On the other hand, the vast majority have chosen to learn, and practice English, presumably because they believe they will be more successful if they are fluent in the national language. That seems reasonable and true. I would assume if I went to China, speaking Chinese would be a distinct asset in my endeavors there.
Why indeed. They do it largely because it is allowed to be done. It is not illegal...not yet anyway. And, on one hand, it is easier for them. I personally know people of several ethnicities whose family members (most often parents) have made the choice not to learn English (Filipino, Mexican, Dominican, Armenian, Chinese, Korean). Some have been here many years so the opportunity to learn was available and most of them are citizens. On the other hand, the vast majority have chosen to learn, and practice English, presumably because they believe they will be more successful if they are fluent in the national language. That seems reasonable and true. I would assume if I went to China, speaking Chinese would be a distinct asset in my endeavors there.
Oh, that's a great idea! Do it because it is allowed? If any immigrant refuses to learn our langauge we should cater to them? Do you know how many different ethnic groups have migrated to our country and how many different languages that would mean? All this is, is PC crap for the lazy and the illegal.
Oh, that's a great idea! Do it because it is allowed? If any immigrant refuses to learn our langauge we should cater to them? Do you know how many different ethnic groups have migrated to our country and how many different languages that would mean? All this is, is PC crap for the lazy and the illegal.
It's better than doing it because it's not allowed...isn't it? You are copying a lot of my messages but are you reading them completely? If you were, you'd know I was agreeing with much of what you're saying including the question of "how many different ethnic groups have migrated to our country...". But signage is more about enterprise (advertising) than PC crap and I guess it's just part of how things are. McDonalds is not being PC when they put up a sign in El Sereno that says, "Mi gusto la comida de McDonalds." They're just selling hamburgers to the locals.
Right now we have communities with a non-English population that is concentrated enough to the point where they don't have to learn English if they don't want to. A Chinese person, in the San Gabriel Valley, can food shop in a Chinese market, go to a Chinese bank, a Chinese dry cleaner etc. Ditto an Armenian in Glendale, A Filipino in Eagle Rock and a Korean in La Crescenta. I am not advocating this but merely stating what I see happening.
Until we make it illegal to speak another language or to put up a sign in another language, there is little that can be done about it. Are you advocating doing that? We have unique freedoms here in the US but they are not conditional. That sounds unAmerican. Like saying, "You have the right to free speech as long as you don't say this, and this and this...".
It's better than doing it because it's not allowed...isn't it? You are copying a lot of my messages but are you reading them completely? If you were, you'd know I was agreeing with much of what you're saying including the question of "how many different ethnic groups have migrated to our country...". But signage is more about enterprise (advertising) than PC crap and I guess it's just part of how things are. McDonalds is not being PC when they put up a sign in El Sereno that says, "Mi gusto la comida de McDonalds." They're just selling hamburgers to the locals.
Right now we have communities with a non-English population that is concentrated enough to the point where they don't have to learn English if they don't want to. A Chinese person, in the San Gabriel Valley, can food shop in a Chinese market, go to a Chinese bank, a Chinese dry cleaner etc. Ditto an Armenian in Glendale, A Filipino in Eagle Rock and a Korean in La Crescenta. I am not advocating this but merely stating what I see happening.
Until we make it illegal to speak another language or to put up a sign in another language, there is little that can be done about it. Are you advocating doing that? We have unique freedoms here in the US but they are not conditional. That sounds unAmerican. Like saying, "You have the right to free speech as long as you don't say this, and this and this...".
Selling hamburgers to the locals? You must mean illegal aliens as most Hispanic Americans speak English. That is my objection when business caters to illegal aliens in their langauge and they are mostly catering to the Spanish speaking variety. Anything for a buck, right?
Signage in a foreign language in an ethnic BUSINESS neighborhood (Chinatown comes to mind) is one thing but when U.S. businesses like McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc. do so then it is all about greed and patronizing illegal aliens.
Selling hamburgers to the locals? You must mean illegal aliens as most Hispanic Americans speak English. That is my objection when business caters to illegal aliens in their langauge and they are mostly catering to the Spanish speaking variety. Anything for a buck, right?
Signage in a foreign language in an ethnic BUSINESS neighborhood (Chinatown comes to mind) is one thing but when U.S. businesses like McDonalds, Wal-Mart, etc. do so then it is all about greed and patronizing illegal aliens.
I do understand your objection and agree with the "anything for a buck" tendency but you are assuming that the majority of the locals in these places are illegal. I am not so sure that is an accurate assumption.
I do understand your objection and agree with the "anything for a buck" tendency but you are assuming that the majority of the locals in these places are illegal. I am not so sure that is an accurate assumption.
Where did you get that I assume that? It is just logical though that there are illegal aliens that patronize many American businesses. The businesses know that so they pander to them in their native language which is Spanish. Very few Hispanic Americans would need that kind of pandering since they are usually bi-lingual.
Where did you get that I assume that? It is just logical though that there are illegal aliens that patronize many American businesses. The businesses know that so they pander to them in their native language which is Spanish. Very few Hispanic Americans would need that kind of pandering since they are usually bi-lingual.
Where do I get that? From your post..."Selling hamburgers to the locals? You must mean illegal aliens as most Hispanic Americans speak English."
That was your reply to my statement..."But signage is more about enterprise (advertising) than PC crap and I guess it's just part of how things are. McDonalds is not being PC when they put up a sign in El Sereno that says, 'Mi gusto la comida de McDonalds.' They're just selling hamburgers to the locals."
Based on this seemingly clear example, it would appear that you were assuming I meant illegal aliens when I said locals.
Regardless, in the area I referred to, El Sereno, I believe the majority are legal residents, not illegals. Furthermore, I would guess that many of those that you assume are bi-lingual are closer to ESL (English as a Second Language) than being fluent as bi-lingual implies. They can still be, and often are legal, in spite of the language ability. It's much easier to function with their first language so even the legal ones do it. And again, last I checked, it was not illegal to do this.
Anyway, apparently it is not enough to agree with you to some degree so I will stop the quibbling here.
I will end my discussion with you with this...
Is there abuse in terms of immigration? You bet.
Is it a majority of the latinos here that are abusing the system? It is a large number but I don't know that it is the majority. I work closely with Medi-Cal in California and I see abuse nearly every day.
Are there politicians and businesses pandering to these people for their own gain? Again, very likely.
Are our immigration policies too liberal? In comparison with the rest of the world? Yes they are. But then we've always been different in terms of ideology.
Should illegal immigration be minimized, and or eliminated? Yes. How? Through the difficult, and often time consuming, process of legislation.
Will the area I live in eventually be a majority Latino? Could be. After all, there has been a strong latino presence here long before I came here.
Will that mean an official Mexifornia? I doubt it, in spite of some people's desires.
This country was founded in large part with the sweat and blood of immigrants, legal and otherwise. In NYC, droves of Italians, Chinese, Irish and other working class people came to the land that proudly stated..."Give us your poor..." Perhaps Lady Liberty's torch of hope, a welcome symbol, should be replaced by a middle finger and a hardy F U!
Ah yes..."Welcome to America. Now get the #%#@$ out!
Where do I get that? From your post..."Selling hamburgers to the locals? You must mean illegal aliens as most Hispanic Americans speak English."
That was your reply to my statement..."But signage is more about enterprise (advertising) than PC crap and I guess it's just part of how things are. McDonalds is not being PC when they put up a sign in El Sereno that says, 'Mi gusto la comida de McDonalds.' They're just selling hamburgers to the locals."
Based on this seemingly clear example, it would appear that you were assuming I meant illegal aliens when I said locals.
Regardless, in the area I referred to, El Sereno, I believe the majority are legal residents, not illegals. Furthermore, I would guess that many of those that you assume are bi-lingual are closer to ESL (English as a Second Language) than being fluent as bi-lingual implies. They can still be, and often are legal, in spite of the language ability. It's much easier to function with their first language so even the legal ones do it. And again, last I checked, it was not illegal to do this.
Anyway, apparently it is not enough to agree with you to some degree so I will stop the quibbling here.
I will end my discussion with you with this...
Is there abuse in terms of immigration? You bet.
Is it a majority of the latinos here that are abusing the system? It is a large number but I don't know that it is the majority. I work closely with Medi-Cal in California and I see abuse nearly every day.
Are there politicians and businesses pandering to these people for their own gain? Again, very likely.
Are our immigration policies too liberal? In comparison with the rest of the world? Yes they are. But then we've always been different in terms of ideology.
Should illegal immigration be minimized, and or eliminated? Yes. How? Through the difficult, and often time consuming, process of legislation.
Will the area I live in eventually be a majority Latino? Could be. After all, there has been a strong latino presence here long before I came here.
Will that mean an official Mexifornia? I doubt it, in spite of some people's desires.
This country was founded in large part with the sweat and blood of immigrants, legal and otherwise. In NYC, droves of Italians, Chinese, Irish and other working class people came to the land that proudly stated..."Give us your poor..." Perhaps Lady Liberty's torch of hope, a welcome symbol, should be replaced by a middle finger and a hardy F U!
Ah yes..."Welcome to America. Now get the #%#@$ out!
Here is where you go wrong in your response to my post about the "locals". The "locals" would have to be illegal aliens since they felt the need to reach them in Spanish. As I said, most Hispanic American and even legal immigrants speak and understand English. Is McDonald trying to reach the "locals" in Mandarin? No, of course not because in spite of your claim that you don't know that the majority of illegals are Mexicans/Latinos....they are!
There was not a strong presence of Latinos in this country prior to the illegal invasion. This demographic change of our country isn't happening through natural means but by illegal immigration. Do the math. How can the identity of our country not change with waves and waves of illegal aliens coming into our country year after from south of our border?
Yes, the first immigrants were from all over the world but in smaller numbers than today. What you fail to understand or are in denial of is that these so-called "immigrants" of today are coming from mostly one ethnic group. Lady Liberty didn't intend for immigrants to enter without permission of our government either. We are now a nation of over 300 million people. Times have changed and if we are to remain a diversified country how is absorbing millions from one ethnic group coming illegally into our country in uncontrolled numbers going to maintain that diversity?
OK. I lied. I am not done. Again. I agree with much of what you say. But I take exception to your posts as follows:
"Here is where you go wrong in your response to my post about the "locals". The "locals" would have to be illegal aliens since they felt the need to reach them in Spanish."
This is a BS conclusion. I personally know a fair amount of Latin people from this area. I went to school with many of them and played sports against many of them. They are middle class people. They vote. They pay taxes. They do pretty much all the things that my family does and did. The chief difference? The parents first language is Spanish. Some of the parents never bothered to learn English at least at what one might call fluent. Nothing illegal about that. Simply their choice to do so. And I'm sure they find Spanish easier in spite of being legal.
"Is McDonald trying to reach the "locals" in Mandarin? No, of course not because in spite of your claim that you don't know that the majority of illegals are Mexicans/Latinos....they are!"
In El Sereno, the majority of illegals are likely Latino. That's who lives there. But that is far different than saying the majority of Latinos / locals that live there are illegal. For Mandarin, you need to go to Alhambra, where the Chinese live in a high concentration. The banks and other local businesses have everything in some Chinese dialect. They don't need to speak English if they don't want to. Are they legal? I don't know.
"There was not a strong presence of Latinos in this country prior to the illegal invasion."
Exactly when did this illegal invasion start? Where I live, which is the same place my parents lived, there has always been a lot of Latinos. I can open my mom's yearbook from Franklin High School (1951) and I see as many Latinos, if not more, than other ethnicities. The same goes for my yearbook nearly 30 years later. I guess this is not reflective of the country as a whole by your estimates.
So I close by saying that I hope we entertained others with these discussions though they seem awfully one-sided. I have acknowledged many of your points but you have only focused on my "denial" or lack of understanding as perceived by you. As a discussion partner I would rate you low because you move forward steadfast in your beliefs without seeing, or recognizing any merit in a different point of view. Like talking to my ex. Who needs that?
Lastly, you don't need to quote all of my posts as you are only focusing on your message and only tidbits of mine. Now I am hungry and am going to get some huevos rancheros at my favorite HP Latino diner. I'll say hola for you and let the guys in back know that real Americans are watching them.
So I say goodbye / adios...have a good day / buenos dias...this is it / punto finale.
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