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Old 03-21-2011, 10:40 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
I can see BOTH sides of this issue.

On the one hand, we've spent our entire lives in the relative splendor of the USA, and the advantage in lifestyle that has given us. For better or worse, it is just human nature to have a strong desire to hold on to those advantages and use legality rather than morality to justify our position on the issue of illegal immigration.

On the other hand, most of us have the advantages we have, simply becasue we were born in the USA. Our advantaged lifestyle is simply due to an accident of birth. Again, simple human nature at work to blind us of this reality. Rather than sharing our good fortune with those less fortunate, we choose to have our politicians create laws that make someone a criminal for taking actions to better their lot lot in life. We ( myself included ) choose to hide behind the skirts of legality, as a means of not having to face our unwillingness to exercise unconditional compassion to our fellow human beings.
What BOTH sides are you writing about?



You're clearly coming down not only in favor of illegal immigration but SUBSIDIZED illegal immigration. That's insane.

One could easily say that about the oligarchs in Mexico. There are eleven billionaires there. Yet rather than providing opportunities for their own poor people they'd rather ship them here and demand the American taxpayer do so.

The truth is that most illegal immigrants have fiscal problems because of their own life choices. Many have chosen to drop out of school and have children they ultimately cannot afford. If they did the same here they'd also be poor here. If they did that in their own home countries they'd also be poor. We are under no obligation to provide for the needs of a foreign underclass that does refuses to abide by basic common sense decisions about education and childbearing.

I personally have money because I stayed in school and delayed childbearing until I was ready to afford children. I am not obligated to "share my good fortune" with foreigners who refuse to follow the same path.

Last edited by Eleanora1; 03-21-2011 at 10:54 AM..
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
I can see BOTH sides of this issue.

On the one hand, we've spent our entire lives in the relative splendor of the USA, and the advantage in lifestyle that has given us. For better or worse, it is just human nature to have a strong desire to hold on to those advantages and use legality rather than morality to justify our position on the issue of illegal immigration.
On the other hand, most of us have the advantages we have, simply becasue we were born in the USA. Our advantaged lifestyle is simply due to an accident of birth. Again, simple human nature at work to blind us of this reality. Rather than sharing our good fortune with those less fortunate, we choose to have our politicians create laws that make someone a criminal for taking actions to better their lot lot in life. We ( myself included ) choose to hide behind the skirts of legality, as a means of not having to face our unwillingness to exercise unconditional compassion to our fellow human beings.
My race (black) was not even considered human prior to the 14th Amendment, and subsequently, was treated as subhuman prior to the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Our rights were hard-fought, and not the result of a simple “accident of birth.” Likewise, illegal aliens should fight for rights in their countries of origin, not come here in flagrant violation of our laws, and expect to realize the American Dream.

Every country has immigration laws. How are our laws unfair, which, by the way, admit more legal immigrants than ALL other countries combined? How do we have a moral obligation to provide a better life for illegal aliens? Why are their governments relieved of that moral responsibility?
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
What BOTH sides are you writing about?



You're clearing coming down not only in favor of illegal immigration but SUBSIDIZED illegal immigration. That's insane.

One could easily say that about the oligarchs in Mexico. There are eleven billionaires there. Yet rather than providing opportunities for their own poor people they'd rather ship them here and demand the American taxpayer do so.

The truth is that most illegal immigrants have chosen to drop out of school and have children they ultimately cannot afford. If they did the same here they'd also be poor here. If they did that in their own home countries they'd also be poor. We are under no obligation to provide for the needs of a foreign underclass that does refuses to abide by basic common sense decisions about education and childbearing.

I personally have money because I stayed in school and delayed childbearing until I was ready to afford children. I am not obligated to "share my good fortune" with foreigners who refuse to follow the same path.
Thank you! Same here. Had I chosen to drop out of school, and have babies in my teens, I certainly would not enjoy my current economic status, and I would have no one to blame but myself. I resent being forced to foot the bill for U.S. citizens who behave irresponsibly. I damn sure donít enjoy paying for foreign interlopers who choose to give birth to children they know they cannot afford.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:23 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
True. Itís also interesting that illegal immigration is the ONLY lawless act in which opposition is demonized and labeled racism. No one would consider vilifying others for opposing theft, but somehow they consider illegal alien theft justified, and all opponents are xenophobes and haters.
You got that right, Benicar. I don't get the hypocricy.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:31 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,146,155 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
I can see BOTH sides of this issue.

On the one hand, we've spent our entire lives in the relative splendor of the USA, and the advantage in lifestyle that has given us. For better or worse, it is just human nature to have a strong desire to hold on to those advantages and use legality rather than morality to justify our position on the issue of illegal immigration.

On the other hand, most of us have the advantages we have, simply becasue we were born in the USA. Our advantaged lifestyle is simply due to an accident of birth. Again, simple human nature at work to blind us of this reality. Rather than sharing our good fortune with those less fortunate, we choose to have our politicians create laws that make someone a criminal for taking actions to better their lot lot in life. We ( myself included ) choose to hide behind the skirts of legality, as a means of not having to face our unwillingness to exercise unconditional compassion to our fellow human beings.
Mexicans could have all the advantages that we do if they just fought for a better country just like Americans have fought with blood, sweat and tears to be where we are today. Instead they take the easy and unlawful way out.

Just how "moral" would you expect us to get? There are two billion impoverished in the world. Are there any limits to your compassion? Our legal immigration quotas are very generous without negatively impacting our own citizens. Should we go beyond that and not care about our own ciitizen's welfare to accomodate the world's poor? I'd like to know where is the compassion by the sympathizers to illegal aliens for their own countrymen....nowhere. That is what makes it laughable when they take the moral high ground.
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,754 posts, read 16,450,212 times
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Elanora wrote:
What BOTH sides are you writing about?


One side: it is just human nature to have a strong desire to hold on to those advantages and use legality rather than morality to justify our position on the issue of illegal immigration.


The other side: most of us have the advantages we have, simply becasue we were born in the USA. Our advantaged lifestyle is simply due to an accident of birth.


You're clearly coming down not only in favor of illegal immigration but SUBSIDIZED illegal immigration. That's insane.
My side: We ( myself included ) choose to hide behind the skirts of legality, as a means of not having to face our unwillingness to exercise unconditional compassion to our fellow human beings.

I'm truly tormented about this. The selfish part of me wants to keep out the illegals, while the more compassionate part of me says, knock down all of the man made lines in the sand, and allow people to choose where they want to live without all the man made legal hassles. Give human beings a status that is at least equal to the status of the birds and animals who are not subject to those lines in the sand.

How is it insane to have a desire to improve the rights of human beings to at least match the rights of birds and animals?
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,809,199 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Elanora wrote:
What BOTH sides are you writing about?


One side: it is just human nature to have a strong desire to hold on to those advantages and use legality rather than morality to justify our position on the issue of illegal immigration.


The other side: most of us have the advantages we have, simply becasue we were born in the USA. Our advantaged lifestyle is simply due to an accident of birth.


You're clearly coming down not only in favor of illegal immigration but SUBSIDIZED illegal immigration. That's insane.
My side: We ( myself included ) choose to hide behind the skirts of legality, as a means of not having to face our unwillingness to exercise unconditional compassion to our fellow human beings.

I'm truly tormented about this. The selfish part of me wants to keep out the illegals, while the more compassionate part of me says, knock down all of the man made lines in the sand, and allow people to choose where they want to live without all the man made legal hassles. Give human beings a status that is at least equal to the status of the birds and animals who are not subject to those lines in the sand.

How is it insane to have a desire to improve the rights of human beings to at least match the rights of birds and animals?
When birds and animals start committing ID theft and fraud, displacing workers and depressing wages, committing violent criminal acts against our citizens, and bankrupting states, then you can compare them to illegal aliens. Until then, there is no comparison.
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,754 posts, read 16,450,212 times
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Benicar wrote:
When birds and animals start committing ID theft and fraud, displacing workers and depressing wages, committing violent criminal acts against our citizens, and bankrupting states, then you can compare them to illegal aliens. Until then, there is no comparison.
That's is NOT true. I already made the comparison!
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:24 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Elanora wrote:
What BOTH sides are you writing about?


One side: it is just human nature to have a strong desire to hold on to those advantages and use legality rather than morality to justify our position on the issue of illegal immigration.


The other side: most of us have the advantages we have, simply becasue we were born in the USA. Our advantaged lifestyle is simply due to an accident of birth.


You're clearly coming down not only in favor of illegal immigration but SUBSIDIZED illegal immigration. That's insane.
My side: We ( myself included ) choose to hide behind the skirts of legality, as a means of not having to face our unwillingness to exercise unconditional compassion to our fellow human beings.

I'm truly tormented about this. The selfish part of me wants to keep out the illegals, while the more compassionate part of me says, knock down all of the man made lines in the sand, and allow people to choose where they want to live without all the man made legal hassles. Give human beings a status that is at least equal to the status of the birds and animals who are not subject to those lines in the sand.

How is it insane to have a desire to improve the rights of human beings to at least match the rights of birds and animals?
All that self congratulation has literally nothing to do with the topic at hand. Most illegal immigrants are from Mexico and Latin America. Mexico has the 11th largest economy in the world. As I pointed out in another thread the people in question aren't starving. In fact one third of ALL Mexican children are obese. Mexico has national health care and a thriving economy. Why should Americans allow Mexican nationals the right to come here without permission?

Every single country has borders. Why are we surrender ours because a group of foreigners say so?

My "privileged lifestyle" is hardly as a result of birth. I was born in a housing project to a high school dropout and a GED holder. I owe my current economic status because I stayed in school, earned an education and then voluntarily chose to have children once I could afford them. Most of the illegal immigrants have done nothing of the kind. Why are they exempt from the laws that govern the rest of us?

You seem to believe that Americans are some sort of enormously privileged people and illegal immgrants are saints who are disadvantaged solely because they weren't born here. Nothing could be further from the truth.

You might want to stop patting yourself on the back for that belief.
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:25 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,385,436 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Benicar wrote:
When birds and animals start committing ID theft and fraud, displacing workers and depressing wages, committing violent criminal acts against our citizens, and bankrupting states, then you can compare them to illegal aliens. Until then, there is no comparison.
That's is NOT true. I already made the comparison!
A bad one. A silly, santimonious, self congratulatory comparison that holds people to no standards at all.
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