U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-23-2011, 12:09 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,388,471 times
Reputation: 2345

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
I'm not questioning anyones RIGHT to make laws. I am making a distinction between legal issues and humanitarian issues. As long as we are stuck in our me first attitudes ( and let me be clear that I am as stuck with it as anybody else. I am reluctant to give up any of my advantages to those less fortunate than me ), we will protect ourselves with legalities rather than genuinely caring about each other...unconditionally.

Remember, I qualified my statement with a big IF ( IF they could lieve WHEREVER they wanted to ). IF that were the case, I truly do not think that most of the 2 billion impoverished on this planet would wnat to move here if they could. I believe that many would prefer to live in other countries. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Swithzerland, & France come readily to mind. And ther are many other as well. Your version of reality is simply different than my version of reality. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right or vice versa. What I am saying is that we see things differently. I am not attempting to make you wrong.
With all due respect please do some research before making such sweeping and inaccurate generalizations.

Most illegal immigrants do not come here for religious reasons or because they want to breath free air. They come here for one reason only: to better their lives economically. Unfortunately most illegal migrants are not a match for the needs of America's economy. All too often they lack the education, training, skills and language ability we need.

People who stay at home or migrate legally are generally far more of a better fit with their own countries.

As a result many illegal immigrants pose a huge drain on American communities. They don't earn enough to pay for the costs of their children's schooling, their health care needs and the additional needs they impose on our nation.

Under your belief system none of this is supposed to matter. We're all supposed to sit down and welcome people who will ultimately take our tax dollars and provide nothing in return. That's not fair. Middle class Americans cannot and should not be held responsible for the needs of the world's poor.

This situation particularly applies to Mexico. Mexico is the source of more than half of our illegal migrant population. Mexico is a nation rich in resources. Mexico is home to eleven billionaires and Carlos Slim who is estimated to be the world's richest man. As I pointed out in another thread Mexicans are not starving. In fact one third of all Mexican school children are obese!



Yet Mexican officials unfortunately see fit to demand that we take the least functional of their citizens and provide for their needs. Not Carlos Slim or the eleven billionaires. Not their own oligarchy. No. The average American taxpayer. Many Mexican illegals do not speak English, have more than a seventh grade education and have many children.

How is it some sort awful selfishness to tell our neighbor to the south that the needs of Mexico's poor people are NOT an American responsibility? Mexico even has national health insurance while many of our middle class citizens increasingly do not. You aren't talking about universal values. You're taking about imposing an obligation on a single group of people, an obligation you apparently do not see fit to demand of others.

Please take some time to think about your fancy words and your alleged idealism. Because at some point it doesn't look like idealism. It looks like a cruel and unfair burden merely so some people can feel better about themselves.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-23-2011, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,756 posts, read 16,470,226 times
Reputation: 9292
Elanora1 wrote:
With all due respect please do some research before making such sweeping and inaccurate generalizations.
If you carefully re-read the part of my post that you quoted you will notice that I used the words...I believe. Nowhere in my post have I stated that anything was a fact. I've been very clear that everything I've written is my opinion, my belief, idealism, or simply a guess. If you would slow down and actually read what I have written and take my words at face value without twisting them, you may begin to understand the idealism I speak of.

So let's leave it alone, 'cause we can't see eye to eye.
There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys.
There's only you and me and we just disagree.
Ooo - ooo - ooohoo oh - oh - o-whoa


By Dave Mason
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2011, 12:37 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,161,367 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
chicagonut wrote:
It means the same thing for God's sake! In otherwords you are saying that "unconditional" compassion means allowing anyone who wants to move here should be able to. There is that better for you? That also means that we wouldn't have the right to have immigration laws then. Is this just your view of this nation or should all nations not be allowed to control their immigration numbers either?
It may mean the same thing to you, but in my mind, there is a world of difference between importing the poor and allowing anyone who wants to live here...live here.

I'm not questioning anyones RIGHT to make laws. I am making a distinction between legal issues and humanitarian issues. As long as we are stuck in our me first attitudes ( and let me be clear that I am as stuck with it as anybody else. I am reluctant to give up any of my advantages to those less fortunate than me ), we will protect ourselves with legalities rather than genuinely caring about each other...unconditionally.
If you don't think that many if not most of the 2 billion impoverished on this planet wouldn't move here if they could then you aren't dealing in reality.
Remember, I qualified my statement with a big IF ( IF they could lieve WHEREVER they wanted to ). IF that were the case, I truly do not think that most of the 2 billion impoverished on this planet would wnat to move here if they could. I believe that many would prefer to live in other countries. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Swithzerland, & France come readily to mind. And ther are many other as well. Your version of reality is simply different than my version of reality. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right or vice versa. What I am saying is that we see things differently. I am not attempting to make you wrong.
Have you given any thought at all about the ramifications of that to our own citizens or don't we count?
IMO everybody counts, but we in America have a tendency to believe that we count more than anyone else. In the near future I think that we will see how arrogant we have been.
Do you know what it takes to support a given population in the way of jobs, housing, schools, hospitals, social infrastructures and our natural resources? Apparently not.
No I honestly don't know, and I seriously doubt that you do either, so we are pretty much in the same boat on this matter.
What about our right as a nation to retain our identity, culture and language and the ensuing cultural clashes that would bring about?
To me it is not a question of having the right or not having the right, but more a matter of wether or not we choose to asssert that right. Once we grow in consciousness, we will no longer feel a need to assert that right. Until then we will continue to do so. I believe that future generations of Americans will come to this same realization, and with that mindset, working out the issue that you bring up will unfold quite smoothly.
Let us know when you find out what is actually meant by "all men are created equal" also. I'll be waiting with baited breath.
There is no need to hold your breath. Breathe deeply and just relax. I've already expressed my interpretation of "all men are created equal" as it relates to immigration. So if you genuinely want to know, go back and read thru some of my recent posts in this thread.
You still can't be serious that we should allow anyone who wants to live here to come here and do so and yes in otherwords you ARE saying we shouldn't have a right to immigration laws and quotas.

If allowing in 1.5 million immigrants per year isn't humanitarian enough for you then I don't know what to say to convince you otherwise. Where is your compassion for the American people? This burden of million of illegal aliens is impacting our country and our citizens negatively. Does that not matter to you? Shouldn't the people that were born here and that had ancestors that built this country have any rights to sovereirgn borders and assert that right? We can only be compassionate and humanitarian to a certain number before it negatively impacts our own. We also give generously to the rest of the world so that they can make their own countries better. Why should they be allowed to come here and live instead of that?

You really need to educate yourself on the carrying capacity of any nation. Try this, susps. org.

You implied that we are not honoring our Constitution by setting limits on immigration using "all men are created equal" as your argument. I asked you to find out what that actually means in our Constitution. Your "opinion" on it doesn't mean squat. It doesn't mean unlimited immigration into our country.

I am done with this. I don't mean to be rude but I won't debate with anyone with such bizarre views IMO and such tunnel vision for our country.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2011, 12:38 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,388,471 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Elanora1 wrote:
With all due respect please do some research before making such sweeping and inaccurate generalizations.
If you carefully re-read the part of my post that you quoted you will notice that I used the words...I believe. Nowhere in my post have I stated that anything was a fact. I've been very clear that everything I've written is my opinion, my belief, idealism, or simply a guess. If you would slow down and actually read what I have written and take my words at face value without twisting them, you may begin to understand the idealism I speak of.

So let's leave it alone, 'cause we can't see eye to eye.
There ain't no good guys, there ain't no bad guys.
There's only you and me and we just disagree.
Ooo - ooo - ooohoo oh - oh - o-whoa

By Dave Mason
Your beliefs are wrong.

There's nothing idealistic about telling one class of people and one class only to support the economic desires of another class of people. Your "idealism" would and does indeed pose huge costs on many Americans. This is a debate forum. We tend to stick to the facts. You might want to as well if you desire to have any credibility.

Here's mine:

Number of illegal immigrants drops, study finds - CNN

Mexicans account for about 60 percent of all illegal immigrants.

Carlos Slim:

Carlos Slim: Who Is the World's Richest Man? - ABC News

Mexican children obese:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/wo...hildren&st=cse

Mexican access to universal health care (something denied to many Americans):

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/wo...%20care&st=cse

Please explain to me why your ideal of "idealism" would give a big chunk of Mexico's population the right to come here without permission and use social services paid for by the American taxpayer. If you're going to propose granting foreign nationals access to my money I'd like to hear some rational reasons why.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2011, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,756 posts, read 16,470,226 times
Reputation: 9292
Elanora1 wrote:
Please explain to me why your ideal of "idealism" would give a big chunk of Mexico's population the right to come here without permission...
Not just coming here. You keep missing that part. In my dream, anyone could live wherever they choose to live. I think you erroneously assume that all the impoversihed people of Mexico would choose to come here. Maybe they would or maybe they wouldn't. No matter...it just an assumption either way.

I will now leave this thread with a few words penned many years ago by one of the heros of my youth.
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


By John Lennon
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2011, 02:20 PM
 
17,286 posts, read 24,992,616 times
Reputation: 8527
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Elanora1 wrote:
Please explain to me why your ideal of "idealism" would give a big chunk of Mexico's population the right to come here without permission...
Not just coming here. You keep missing that part. In my dream, anyone could live wherever they choose to live. I think you erroneously assume that all the impoversihed people of Mexico would choose to come here. Maybe they would or maybe they wouldn't. No matter...it just an assumption either way.

I will now leave this thread with a few words penned many years ago by one of the heros of my youth.
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


By John Lennon
In my dream, everyone in the world would live in ocean front mansions and would be rich.

Back in reality, however, I'd settle for a world where "open borders" supporters agreed to a world where THEY were not allowed to lock the doors to their home, and where anybody who wanted come come in and live in their houses without permission at any time.

What do you say? It would end the homelessness problem. Do you think you should post a Craigslist ad advertising your home "open" and free to anyone who needs a place to crash?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2011, 02:30 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,388,471 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
Elanora1 wrote:
Please explain to me why your ideal of "idealism" would give a big chunk of Mexico's population the right to come here without permission...
Not just coming here. You keep missing that part. In my dream, anyone could live wherever they choose to live. I think you erroneously assume that all the impoversihed people of Mexico would choose to come here. Maybe they would or maybe they wouldn't. No matter...it just an assumption either way.

I will now leave this thread with a few words penned many years ago by one of the heros of my youth.
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

By John Lennon
It's not an assumption.

Six million Mexicans would like to move here according to polls:

Roughly 6.2 Million Mexicans Express Desire to Move to U.S.

It's all very well to talk of moving somewhere but the truth is that most people can't afford to move many places. I would like to live on the beach but I can't afford it. Most of the Mexicans in question can't afford to live in the United States unless the American taxpayer subsidizes them. Why should we?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2011, 03:53 PM
 
304 posts, read 342,728 times
Reputation: 170
Then there is this:
Gang paint threatens to turn Helen Hunt Falls into new Graffiti Falls | vogrin, side, streets - SIDE STREETS - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2011, 04:26 PM
 
Location: San Diego
32,826 posts, read 30,110,492 times
Reputation: 17702
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
chicagonut wrote:
Wouldn't "unconditional" compassion mean that we would have no right to have immigration laws and be obligated to import all the world's poor here in order to carry out your views of "unconditional" compassion"?
I don't think so. My concept of unconditional compassion as it relates to the issue of immigration has nothing to do with importing the worlds poor. Rather I see it as allowing those who want to live here....to live here.

Not everyone on this planet, rich and poor alike have any desire to live in the USA. IF everyone on the planet could live wherever they wanted to, I imagine that many current US residents would choose to live elsewhere, and perhaps the population of the US might even shrink. I don't really know what would happpen. I'm just guessing and stating my opinion based on that guess.
There are probably 1 billion that want to live here just between African, Asia and probably Russia. How are you going to get those people that want to move here....well here?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2011, 04:26 PM
 
304 posts, read 342,728 times
Reputation: 170
And our tax dollars have to go to clean up this:
Side Streets - Colorado Springs Gazette, CO
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Illegal Immigration
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top