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Old 07-10-2007, 09:05 PM
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,687,743 times
Reputation: 3010


By the way Leslie--I am not a Minuteman, nor have I ever professed to speak for the Minutemen. Count me as a deeply concerned American citizen if you feel that you must pigeonhole me at all.

The simple fact that you tell me that the rules of engagement in our debates will include no name calling in one post, then suggest a topic entitled "racism in the Minuteman movement," leads me to one certain conclusion. I stated in my last post, that the tossing of the "R" word into any debate is nothing more than a derailment manuever and that is a game that I have no time to play.

Any debate between the two of us would be futile, as well as being a monumental waste of time. You and I are polar opposites in our beliefs as well our feelings about, and loyalty to, the United States of America.

For the rest of you folks, if you're curious about the organizations fueling the illegal alien marches and demonstrations, take a look at the pages that Ms. Radford suggests. The socialist/anarchist rhetoric spewed about by these folks is a real eye opener to the world of those who are lobbying for open borders as well as funding the anti-American open borders, pro-illegal alien groups.
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:50 PM
1,156 posts, read 1,874,837 times
Reputation: 317
Originally Posted by lradford View Post
Is this the topic of debate? Should this count as the first of my ten posts on immigration? I'll happily discuss either the "fact vs. fiction" of my writing (plz specify which articles we're talking about) or the merits of the sites I recommended above, but I don't see how either of these will get any of us much of anywhere in this discussion.

btw, got your private message and tried to write back, but you don't allow pms. So here's my response:


Many of us are losing everything. When those who are take sides against each other, we all lose.

And, fyi, you're the first person to call me young in decades, except for my chiropractor, who thinks he's being "positive attitude" with me.
I'll send you a pm and you can write back if you want to. There are times when people must take sides on issues, and in this case citizens are taking sides and a stand against what is causing them to lose everything, illegal immigration.
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Old 07-11-2007, 01:50 PM
Location: phoenix,this place is horrible
105 posts, read 291,056 times
Reputation: 73
I agree with Faith10, we have to unite as a country on this immigration issue but i know we wont because there are too many do gooders out there that have to always take the side of the poor animal or poor mexican.Well, it sucks to be the poor illegals, we dont want you and frankly i could care less if your country sucks but dont come here and wreck ours.
I am a law abiding citizen but i will use force if needed.
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Old 07-11-2007, 06:57 PM
7 posts, read 11,899 times
Reputation: 12

I didn't expect to hear back from you, but I'm glad you wrote.

The point of a debate is to debate _controversial_ and debatable ideas. "Racism within the minutemen" (a term I use generically, in lowercase, as it seems more respectful than some I hear) is controversial and debatable--meaning I agree that you have grounds to argue from. I don't expect you to agree with the proposition, but all propositions take a position opposing the status quo. In offering up the proposition as I did, I'm conceding that "the minutemen are _not_ racist" is the status quo. I would be happy to flip it.

I haven't, at any juncture, said you can't also set terms for the debate. But you can't have a debate without both parties agreeing to a set of rules. Those rules are negotiable themselves, but you can't have a debate without a framework. For instance, I won't ask you to speak for any group, as I proposed earlier, and further I will agree not to refer to you as a minuteman. Without rules debate would be something akin to freestyle wrestling or Australian rules football. That's why most lists look a lot like those "sports." I'm trying to avoid that, since you offered me "a serious debate."

But I see little point in continuing with a back-and-forth, like this one. Most list discussions are, in my experience, ultimately as unproductive as h*ll, whether it's in opposition or a cooperative effort. And I do enough wheel-spinning in my life without adding a list war to that.
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Old 07-11-2007, 07:03 PM
7 posts, read 11,899 times
Reputation: 12
Default and quickly . . .


You also mentioned that we can't debate because we're "polar opposites." What you proposed wasn't an argument between you and me, it was a public debate. I won't change your mind, you won't change mine, but between us we might allow other people here to either reconsider their position or be better grounded in it.
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Old 07-11-2007, 09:40 PM
3,712 posts, read 5,709,656 times
Reputation: 1285
It looks like Indymedia is in the news.

US seizes independent media sites

Indymedia reports on the anti-globalisation movement
The FBI has shut down some 20 sites which were part of an alternative media network known as Indymedia.
A US court order forced the firm hosting the material to hand over two servers in the UK used by the group.

Indymedia says it is a news source for the anti-globalisation movement and other social justice issues.

The reasons behind the seizure are unclear but the FBI has reportedly said the action was taken at the request of Italian and Swiss authorities.
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