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Old 03-17-2012, 07:09 PM
 
3,007 posts, read 4,028,499 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernMethodistUniv214 View Post
RE: Right to Work Has Passed in Indiana
I have decided to reply to this post because I can tell you what is going to happen In Indiana, and while the governor of Indiana thinks it is a great thing, the average worker will soon find out what a terrible mistake RTW is for Indiana.
Some background: I was born in Indiana and went to college as an undergrad in Terre Haute at ISU. I then went to graduate school in Dallas, TX and Denver, CO. And after attending college, I have mostly worked in banking or telecom.
Since going to college I have lived all over the country in various large cities such as Phoenix/Denver/Dallas/Tulsa/Indianapolis & Raleigh. And I have experienced what it is like to work for a company located in a Right to Work state verses a Non-Right to Work state.
Here is what I can tell you as a worker and citizen of a Right to Work state as compared to a Non-Right to Work state. For example, I lived in Arizona, Oklahoma, North Carolina and currently in Texas ~ all are Right To Work States. I have also resided in Colorado which is a Non-Right to Work state, and Indiana, which I believe used to be called a modified Right to Work state, but mostly allowed unions.
So, get ready Indiana … here is what is going to happen, and your politicians are not going to tell you this.
1. Yes, it is TRUE that more companies will relocate to Indiana, and they will be looking to hire workers! Yea! Jobs! How fantastic!
2. But the jobs that will locate in Indiana will be LOW PAYING jobs. Many will be CALL CENTER jobs, or retailjobs, ie., McJobs, etc.
3. These low paying jobs will typically start their workers off at $8.00 per hour, and usually are only part time with NO benefits.
4. Once these jobs are available in your city or town, there will be a large influx of unskilled workers from Mexico who will be happy to work for the low pay.
5. Then you will be competing against someone who speaks Spanish, and the employers in your area will demand that their workers are bilingual, and speak both Spanish/English.
6. If you are lucky enough to get an office type job, and if you are highly skilled and a college graduate, you MIGHT earn $10/12 bucks per hour, and your employer will expect you to be happy to earn that kind of wage, then you will see the difference between working for a company located in a Right to Work state verses a Non-Right to Work state.

HERE IS THE FANTASTIC NEWS FOR ALL HOOSIERS! THIS IS WHAT IT IS GOING TO BE LIKE WHEN YOU WORK IN A RIGHT TO WORK STATE:

A. In a Non-Right to Work state, [which has Union protections] you go to work for 8 hours per day, and are given two 15 minute breaks per day, plus a lunch break of usually 1 hour. Also, if you need to use the restroom during the work day, you are allowed to do this.
B. In a Right to Work state [I live in Texas a RTW state and know this for a fact], your employer DOES NOT HAVE TO GIVE YOU A LUNC BREAK OR 2 FIFTEEN MINUTE BREAKS! That’s right, in RTW states, your employer sets your breaks and lunch break. How do I know this? I once worked for a mortgage company in Texas and they only allowed us two 10 minute breaks and a 30 minute lunch. Having lived in other states such as Indiana/Colorado [Non-Right to Work states], I thought something was wrong with my employer, so I called the Texas Workforce Commission, and this is what I was told ...

“Texas is a Right to Work” state and your employer DOES NOT have to give you a lunch break or any work breaks!”

C. While working at the same mortgage company in Texas, the managers were unbelievably hateful and would yell at coworkers and if people would complain, they were told “If you don’t like it too bad … Texas is a RTW state..” And my coworkers would put up with the verbal abuse on the job.
D. I worked for another company in Texas [a insurance company] and I I observed my employer getting coworkers to work off of the clock. He would say something like, “If you work through lunch, I will buy you lunch ...” and EVERY SINGLE COWORKER fell for that bs, and I said “no thanks” and I took my lunch!
E. In RTW states, it is well known that employers are abusive to their employees. They are often verbally abusive and intimidate their employees. In RTW states, if a person has a non-office type of job, they might work in a dangerous setting and become injured and nothing will happen to their employer.
F. In a RTW state the workers have NO RIGHTS at all! In a RTW state if you get laid off or fired from your job, good luck collecting unemployment benefits. I have tried to collect unemployment from Texas and Indiana in the past. Now in Indiana, I had no problems collecting my unemployment. But in Texas a RTW state, guess what? My employer fought my claim and the Texas Workforce Commission reversed my claim in favor of my employer.
G. In RTW states it is my opinion that employers are in collusion with the unemployment commission, because they almost always rule in favor of the employer over the employee.
H. Now, when I consider what it was like in a Non-Right to work state such as Colorado and Indiana, I was treated with respect, I was allowed to take my breaks and lunch break, I was not ask to illegally work off the clock, I was paid more money and better benefits for the most part.
I. People who live in Non-RTW states verses RTW states generally have a higher standard of living, higher salaries, better working conditions, better benefits, etc.
It is my opinion that they only people who will benefit from RTW is the employers who want to exploit, abuse and use employees. This is a sad day for Indiana.
Man been away for a bit but my god that is hard to read. From what I can gather, you are highly confused on a lot of things. Just from what I can decipher, for starters, NO COMPANY has to provide you a lunch break let alone a paid one. That is at the federal level and you can read their rule here, FLSA - Hours Worked Employee Advisor (http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/hoursworked/screenEE4.asp - broken link). Some states do actually have rest laws which can also be found on the DOL web site. Texas and Indiana are not among them as there are only like 13 states that have it. So RTW or not, companies do not have to provide it except for those states that have a written law. People just assume companies do because for the most part they do because it's in their best interest to do so.

Your example about the mortgage company and being told if you don't like it TX is a RTW state, even the boss has it completely backwards. That means nothing. Texas like Indiana is an At-Will state meaning Fire at will. Unions can't do anything to stop that. That's one of the base arguments here during the debates over it. People scream well, if Indiana becomes a RTW state, employers can just fire you. Well, Indiana is an At-Will state so employers can just FIRE you anyway. The two are completely different.

If your co-workers worked through lunch and agreed to it, how is that a RTW issue? They had the opportunity to say no just like you did. Don't blame RTW for their personal choices.

As far as working conditions, that's a OSHA issue or state level equivalent, report it. You do not honestly think that this stuff only happens in RTW states. Indiana has long been a non RTW state and the working conditions suck for manufacturing esp. heavy industry where some boss in the mill can get pissed off at you and have you in some deep ditch shoveling sludge all day. You really think US Steel is a model citizen? They break the rules every chance they get, created what is considered to be the most polluted river in the nation in the Grand Calumet (no bare skin is to touch the water from the government) and balks at cleaning up their leaking underground tanks or reducing emissions. Deplorable working conditions isn't a RTW or non-RTW issue. There are plants in RTW states that are highly efficient and clean and go above standard.

Whether or not Indiana will drop to 12-14 an hour remains to be seen but probably will not. Indiana recently became a RTW state, Caterpiller is moving one of its plants from Japan back onto US soil. Granted Illinois was out of the question for them, Indiana, a newly RTW state great right but the average wage for the workers would have been between 15-17 per hour. Along comes Georgia, another RTW state who's wages are between 12-14 per hour and wholla, GA has the new cat plant. The point being is midwest pay will more than likely stay in the general vicinity. Sure there's fluctuation between the states but the rates stay pretty consistent and within a small margin of each other, just like they do in the south. The pay difference between Indiana and Georgia for the Cat plant wasn't because of RTW, it was because the base pay rate between the two regions was different and the midwest was higher.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:16 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
3,895 posts, read 4,229,911 times
Reputation: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by msamhunter View Post
Man been away for a bit but my god that is hard to read. From what I can gather, you are highly confused on a lot of things. Just from what I can decipher, for starters, NO COMPANY has to provide you a lunch break let alone a paid one. That is at the federal level and you can read their rule here, FLSA - Hours Worked Employee Advisor (http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/hoursworked/screenEE4.asp - broken link). Some states do actually have rest laws which can also be found on the DOL web site. Texas and Indiana are not among them as there are only like 13 states that have it. So RTW or not, companies do not have to provide it except for those states that have a written law. People just assume companies do because for the most part they do because it's in their best interest to do so.

Your example about the mortgage company and being told if you don't like it TX is a RTW state, even the boss has it completely backwards. That means nothing. Texas like Indiana is an At-Will state meaning Fire at will. Unions can't do anything to stop that. That's one of the base arguments here during the debates over it. People scream well, if Indiana becomes a RTW state, employers can just fire you. Well, Indiana is an At-Will state so employers can just FIRE you anyway. The two are completely different.

If your co-workers worked through lunch and agreed to it, how is that a RTW issue? They had the opportunity to say no just like you did. Don't blame RTW for their personal choices.

As far as working conditions, that's a OSHA issue or state level equivalent, report it. You do not honestly think that this stuff only happens in RTW states. Indiana has long been a non RTW state and the working conditions suck for manufacturing esp. heavy industry where some boss in the mill can get pissed off at you and have you in some deep ditch shoveling sludge all day. You really think US Steel is a model citizen? They break the rules every chance they get, created what is considered to be the most polluted river in the nation in the Grand Calumet (no bare skin is to touch the water from the government) and balks at cleaning up their leaking underground tanks or reducing emissions. Deplorable working conditions isn't a RTW or non-RTW issue. There are plants in RTW states that are highly efficient and clean and go above standard.

Whether or not Indiana will drop to 12-14 an hour remains to be seen but probably will not. Indiana recently became a RTW state, Caterpiller is moving one of its plants from Japan back onto US soil. Granted Illinois was out of the question for them, Indiana, a newly RTW state great right but the average wage for the workers would have been between 15-17 per hour. Along comes Georgia, another RTW state who's wages are between 12-14 per hour and wholla, GA has the new cat plant. The point being is midwest pay will more than likely stay in the general vicinity. Sure there's fluctuation between the states but the rates stay pretty consistent and within a small margin of each other, just like they do in the south. The pay difference between Indiana and Georgia for the Cat plant wasn't because of RTW, it was because the base pay rate between the two regions was different and the midwest was higher.
I will mention though that Muncie could benefit at the expense of the Canadian unions due to CAT shutting down one of its plants in London Ontario. There is a similar plant in Muncie they could move the work too.
Ah unions don't know when to quit lol.
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Old 11-18-2014, 05:40 AM
 
23 posts, read 24,853 times
Reputation: 28
Two years later and has Indy improved thanks to this bill?

Where are the jobs? I thought RTW was going to make this place a world class city where jobs grow on trees! Glad 'OUR MAN' didn't come back but we still need to improve a LOT of the damage that has been done and RTW is one of the things that needs to go with it. It just didn't work and its a sad state that it continues but hey, plenty of people seem alright with it so I guess that makes it fine. I guess people like seeing our unemployment rates go up.
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Old 11-18-2014, 06:20 AM
 
Location: Englewood, Near Eastside Indy
8,013 posts, read 13,035,145 times
Reputation: 5402
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureBlueWolrd View Post
Two years later and has Indy improved thanks to this bill?

Where are the jobs? I thought RTW was going to make this place a world class city where jobs grow on trees! Glad 'OUR MAN' didn't come back but we still need to improve a LOT of the damage that has been done and RTW is one of the things that needs to go with it. It just didn't work and its a sad state that it continues but hey, plenty of people seem alright with it so I guess that makes it fine. I guess people like seeing our unemployment rates go up.
RTW has been around for what? A year or two? I don't think anyone would be able to say yay or nay on its success at this point. Though, I would argue it was never going to have an impact either way.
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Old 11-18-2014, 06:12 PM
 
3,119 posts, read 3,866,427 times
Reputation: 2539
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureBlueWolrd View Post
Two years later and has Indy improved thanks to this bill?

Where are the jobs? I thought RTW was going to make this place a world class city where jobs grow on trees! Glad 'OUR MAN' didn't come back but we still need to improve a LOT of the damage that has been done and RTW is one of the things that needs to go with it. It just didn't work and its a sad state that it continues but hey, plenty of people seem alright with it so I guess that makes it fine. I guess people like seeing our unemployment rates go up.
Yes, and I also though rTW was going to eliminate the middle class and force everyone to work for minimum wage? When did that happen? rTW only affects Union jobs like manufacturing and construction, not every single job and industry. I'm certain there is higher employment now in Indiana in manufacturing and construction. Labor is only a part of the cost of running a business.
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Old 11-19-2014, 12:27 PM
 
2,775 posts, read 2,364,741 times
Reputation: 2965
On the surface, just having read a bit about RTW I don't see the negatives of it. The only people I have ever heard not gripe about Unions were union employees who were way over paid working for the big three US automobile manufacturing companies. These folks had no education and weren't doing anything requiring real skill yet they were earning white collar level pay (and not doing anything particularly challenging).

We saw what happened to the dominance of the big 3 with such highly paid workers... it went away. It was predictable when I learned how little people earn in other countries by comparison and particular when oversea manufacturing and offshore outsourcing took hold for just about everything.

The real problem as I see it is this... the laws past in the 90s to enable offshore outsourcing have absolutely decimated the middle class employment marketplace. The laws past even earlier than that to enable overseas manufacture of goods without tariffs when they come back into the US were arguably just as harmful to the blue collar workers affected.

Are the politicians doing anything about this? NO THEY ARE NOT.

There is a really simple reason for this... Corporations own the US Government (and inarguably every world government today) and thus politicians although may occasionally pay lip service to anti-corporation things, they will never follow-through doing anything about them (or they will lose their job). Thus outsourcing is here to stay. Thus Unions are on their way out. Thus the middle class is being done away with (because the rich owners/directors of the Corporations only need a few highly skilled highly paid employees and politicians and a vast poorly paid low skill workforce to run things to make substantial profit). That's it in a nutshell. Enjoy your lives and stop sweating the small stuff like whether or not Unions are good or bad... they are going away regardless.
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Old 11-20-2014, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Johnson City, TN
18,708 posts, read 13,384,687 times
Reputation: 20713
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuszu View Post
On the surface, just having read a bit about RTW I don't see the negatives of it. The only people I have ever heard not gripe about Unions were union employees who were way over paid working for the big three US automobile manufacturing companies. These folks had no education and weren't doing anything requiring real skill yet they were earning white collar level pay (and not doing anything particularly challenging).

We saw what happened to the dominance of the big 3 with such highly paid workers... it went away. It was predictable when I learned how little people earn in other countries by comparison and particular when oversea manufacturing and offshore outsourcing took hold for just about everything.

The real problem as I see it is this... the laws past in the 90s to enable offshore outsourcing have absolutely decimated the middle class employment marketplace. The laws past even earlier than that to enable overseas manufacture of goods without tariffs when they come back into the US were arguably just as harmful to the blue collar workers affected.

Are the politicians doing anything about this? NO THEY ARE NOT.

There is a really simple reason for this... Corporations own the US Government (and inarguably every world government today) and thus politicians although may occasionally pay lip service to anti-corporation things, they will never follow-through doing anything about them (or they will lose their job). Thus outsourcing is here to stay. Thus Unions are on their way out. Thus the middle class is being done away with (because the rich owners/directors of the Corporations only need a few highly skilled highly paid employees and politicians and a vast poorly paid low skill workforce to run things to make substantial profit). That's it in a nutshell. Enjoy your lives and stop sweating the small stuff like whether or not Unions are good or bad... they are going away regardless.
Lots of folks wax poetic about the "good old days" of Joe being able to do one specific, rote task for thirty years or more on the assembly line, then coming out with the golden watch and defined pension plan. This kind of reward for such low skill work is an anomaly in this country. Some people got in on the gravy train, but it wasn't and isn't sustainable.

If someone is making $14/hr without a defined pension plan at the VW plant in TN, but was making $30/hr for the same work at a union GM plant in MI, does that mean the VW is just greedy as hell? No and we all know what happened to GM. VW is actually pro-union, but the VW workers in TN voted down the UAW.

I don't see how right to work impacts white collar workers much at all, save maybe teachers or any other sort of profession where dues paying union membership is compulsory. It also doesn't impact service staff or most blue collar work these days, as unions don't represent most workers.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
2,268 posts, read 1,897,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AzureBlueWolrd View Post
Two years later and has Indy improved thanks to this bill?

Where are the jobs? I thought RTW was going to make this place a world class city where jobs grow on trees!
It was portrayed that way, but it never would be.

RTW would never make jobs start coming to Indiana that never would have come here before.

Look at Wisconsin. They are a great case study in this whole argument. Walker promised thousands of jobs and went to battle against the unions. He won, and Wisconsin has lost thousands of jobs. That state has been a joke when it comes to "job creation."

It's all politics and big business. Unfortunately, they are often the same thing.

For the record, I am not a member of any union and don't have a problem with RTW legislation.
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Old 12-02-2014, 09:20 AM
 
Location: New Mexico via Ohio via Indiana
1,334 posts, read 1,060,284 times
Reputation: 1999
Nothing about this is good. It does not promote jobs and growth, at least not the kind of jobs and growth that support families or liveable income.
It does union bust, however. That's it's true purpose. And it makes the the non-union working people who resent the union wages and benefits happy because it takes their neighbors down a peg or two.
I truly hate what has happened to the working people in this country. Lot of jealousy, resentment, and acceptance of bad wages and benefits.
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