U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Indiana
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 03-15-2009, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Western Hoosierland
18,265 posts, read 6,051,469 times
Reputation: 5943

Advertisements

America isnt completely the land of the free according to this report.

New Hampshire is the most free state while New York is the most non free state.


Indiana ranks 13th

http://www.examiner.com/x-2304-DC-Re...reedom-Ranking
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-15-2009, 01:46 PM
 
4,176 posts, read 4,744,134 times
Reputation: 1827
I can believe it. Typically, conservatives allow for more freedom than liberals despite the liberals' rhetoric. Just looking from the bottom down, you have to go to state # 38 (OH) to find a state that is not solid blue. Ohio is not solid Red either, but more mixed.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-15-2009, 04:08 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
18,600 posts, read 15,895,452 times
Reputation: 7457
Freedom is not everything. I guess I would rather live in New York or California than in Dakota or Michigan, despite the huge gap between them in this freedom rating. Neither would I want to live somewhere where every idiot runs around with a firearm, nor would I want to live somewhere where every idiot can home-school their children and thus ruin their future.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2009, 03:55 AM
 
2,776 posts, read 1,911,580 times
Reputation: 2949
The irony is that having lived in places both at the top and at the bottom of the ranking I can state with absolute confidence that I feel much safer in a place that is "more free." I also have much less income and sales tax to pay as well as lower costs for insurance as well.

In my experience those who make statements about feeling insecure about others running around with firearms in the "most free" states, have no idea what they are talking about. Just a little research (or life experience) reveals quite plainly that strict gun laws typically are more effective at getting firearms out of the hands of law abiding citizens than out of the hands of criminals. Likewise the criminals with firearms in places such as NY are much more confident when planning a heist that none of the bystanders or victims will be armed. Within the past two years alone I've read of at least two occasions where a gun-armed thief in my own city was shot dead by a store owner or manager defending himself and his property - and I think that is great (not great that someone died, but great that justice was served quickly, efficiently, and appropriately when it needed to be). If those events don't make would-be criminals think twice about copying such crimes, I don't know what would.

Lastly, the above homeschooling comment has got to be a joke. Conduct any research at all about homeschooling and you'll learn that in this snapshot in time, for most households who do it, it is a superior way to educate children compared to public schooling. Studies have shown quite clearly that home-schooled children tend to be generally brighter, more well-rounded, and more confident. With the homeschooling networks and support organizations now available it is easy to understand why. Is homeschooling for everyone? - Of course not. But does it deserve to be bashed? Heck no. ALL of the top tier colleges and Universities now look at home-schooled children quite seriously for admission (they even have separate applicant pools to ensure many of these very bright children are accepted).

Last edited by belovenow; 03-21-2009 at 04:05 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-21-2009, 03:11 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
18,600 posts, read 15,895,452 times
Reputation: 7457
I don't mind paying a lot of taxes if it serves a good purpose, like maintaining the infrastructure etc. Portugal for instance is one of the European countries with the highest degree of personal freedom. At the same time its one of the poorest countries in Europe, without the money injections from Brussels this country would be lost. On the other hand heavily regulated places such as Switzerland, Austria or Scandinavia are doing very well, despite their high taxes.

I really can't understand what you find good about shooting someone, even if in defense. I just think it is the wrong way to go, it smells of lynching. I don't want to live in a place where shopkeepers have rifles under their desks. I don't know if your country is already so violent that this is necessary. If so, it might be a symptom that something is wrong at a much deeper level. Your case reminds me of the discussions there were in Britain a couple of years ago. There were a couple of cases where burglars were shot by homeowners. The discussion was about whether or not they have the right to shoot burglars entering their homes. At least in Europe that is not easy to decide, there is no Wild-West mentality here, where we take justice into our own hands.

New York might be the least free state, but at the same time NYC has an amazingly low crime rate, much lower than that of many a smaller town in freer states, not to mention other big cities.

I don't know what kind of home-schooling you have in mind, I was referring to the type where parents decide what their children should learn and what not. If my parents had taught me, I would not be what I am today. I might be a working poor, a farmhand or whatever, as my parents only had minimal education, spoke no foreign languages, had no idea of maths, physics, etc. I owe basically everything I have accomplished academically and professionally to the grammar school I attended.
I also think it is very important that children spend more and more time among other children and strangers, be exposed to other ethnic groups, other languages etc. I am pretty much against the nucleus family, it is a somewhat unnatural invention. It may be good for parents who want to create clones of themselves, but that is not what having children is supposed to be about in my opinion.

Last edited by Neuling; 03-21-2009 at 03:30 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2009, 12:13 AM
 
2,776 posts, read 1,911,580 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I don't mind paying a lot of taxes if it serves a good purpose, like maintaining the infrastructure etc. Portugal for instance is one of the European countries with the highest degree of personal freedom. At the same time its one of the poorest countries in Europe, without the money injections from Brussels this country would be lost. On the other hand heavily regulated places such as Switzerland, Austria or Scandinavia are doing very well, despite their high taxes.

I really can't understand what you find good about shooting someone, even if in defense. I just think it is the wrong way to go, it smells of lynching. I don't want to live in a place where shopkeepers have rifles under their desks. I don't know if your country is already so violent that this is necessary. If so, it might be a symptom that something is wrong at a much deeper level. Your case reminds me of the discussions there were in Britain a couple of years ago. There were a couple of cases where burglars were shot by homeowners. The discussion was about whether or not they have the right to shoot burglars entering their homes. At least in Europe that is not easy to decide, there is no Wild-West mentality here, where we take justice into our own hands.

New York might be the least free state, but at the same time NYC has an amazingly low crime rate, much lower than that of many a smaller town in freer states, not to mention other big cities.

I don't know what kind of home-schooling you have in mind, I was referring to the type where parents decide what their children should learn and what not. If my parents had taught me, I would not be what I am today. I might be a working poor, a farmhand or whatever, as my parents only had minimal education, spoke no foreign languages, had no idea of maths, physics, etc. I owe basically everything I have accomplished academically and professionally to the grammar school I attended.
I also think it is very important that children spend more and more time among other children and strangers, be exposed to other ethnic groups, other languages etc. I am pretty much against the nucleus family, it is a somewhat unnatural invention. It may be good for parents who want to create clones of themselves, but that is not what having children is supposed to be about in my opinion.
1) Your view of why Portugal is poor is inaccurate. You've drawn a causal relationship where there is only a correlation. High personal freedom in Portugal is not why the country is among the poorest in Europe. If you want to know why it really is poor, then you need a history lesson.

2) Lynching has nothing to do with shooting someone who is threatening to take your life with a gun, first. It's interesting that you mention the wild west term as I've heard it and seen it mentioned only from Europeans over the past 10 or so years on 3 occasions. Regardless of your actual background, use of that term leads me to believe you have little concept of what the US really is like. The wild west as glorified in entertainment is mostly fictional, but that is beside the point. I've lived all over the US and no we're nothing like the wild west today even in the high freedom states. If having your version of a "wild west mentality" means being willing to act to save your own or your family's lives in crisis, then I guess you indeed might be describing a typical American. I see nothing wrong with that. I think it is sad to think that there's people who would just give up, roll over, and die instead. In fact I call that a "victim mentality" or more accurately a "dependent mentality" when we're talking about people who would rather depend upon an unknown and unpresent legal authority figure to arrive in a timely fashion and save the day.

3) NYC isn't representative of the entire state of NY - if you take a look at the crime stats of NY as a whole and compare to the other states, you get an apple to apples comparison.

4) Your concept of home-schooling doesn't represent the reality of home-schooling in the US today. Not at all. What you've described is some backwater approach to home schooling which perhaps exists in Europe, but here that's not what home schooling is about. I've written about home schooling as it really is in the US today elsewhere on this forum and there's plenty of information you can find online about it outside this forum... I recommend you read up on it. It is not what you think it is, and admittedly I didn't know what it was about originally either when I first heard the term.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2009, 03:55 AM
 
19 posts, read 71,162 times
Reputation: 13
This is really a new thing to know. Thanks for this information.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-22-2009, 09:44 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
18,600 posts, read 15,895,452 times
Reputation: 7457
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuszu View Post
1) Your view of why Portugal is poor is inaccurate. You've drawn a causal relationship where there is only a correlation. High personal freedom in Portugal is not why the country is among the poorest in Europe. If you want to know why it really is poor, then you need a history lesson.

2) Lynching has nothing to do with shooting someone who is threatening to take your life with a gun, first. It's interesting that you mention the wild west term as I've heard it and seen it mentioned only from Europeans over the past 10 or so years on 3 occasions. Regardless of your actual background, use of that term leads me to believe you have little concept of what the US really is like. The wild west as glorified in entertainment is mostly fictional, but that is beside the point. I've lived all over the US and no we're nothing like the wild west today even in the high freedom states. If having your version of a "wild west mentality" means being willing to act to save your own or your family's lives in crisis, then I guess you indeed might be describing a typical American. I see nothing wrong with that. I think it is sad to think that there's people who would just give up, roll over, and die instead. In fact I call that a "victim mentality" or more accurately a "dependent mentality" when we're talking about people who would rather depend upon an unknown and unpresent legal authority figure to arrive in a timely fashion and save the day.

3) NYC isn't representative of the entire state of NY - if you take a look at the crime stats of NY as a whole and compare to the other states, you get an apple to apples comparison.

4) Your concept of home-schooling doesn't represent the reality of home-schooling in the US today. Not at all. What you've described is some backwater approach to home schooling which perhaps exists in Europe, but here that's not what home schooling is about. I've written about home schooling as it really is in the US today elsewhere on this forum and there's plenty of information you can find online about it outside this forum... I recommend you read up on it. It is not what you think it is, and admittedly I didn't know what it was about originally either when I first heard the term.
1. It certainly is at least part of the problem. The freedom and lack of regulation (or at least enforcement of them) here makes it relatively easy for instance to withhold taxes. And people use that possibility, thus the Portuguese state is always short of money. At the same time hardly anywhere else in Europe is the gap between the rich and the poor as broad as here in Portugal. Same goes for Britain, also a rather "free" country within Europe, but its society also pays a high price for it. Other countries with a history similar to that of Portugal, e.g. Spain, are way better off by the way.

2. Of course you will only hear wild-west mentality from foreigners, it is not exactly something to be proud of, thus why would Americans themselves use it to describe their own country? And you shouldn't assume we just watch burglars etc. shooting our families here in Europe. The difference is that due to much stricter gun laws and stronger social systems we simply don't have as many poor people looking for easy ways to get to material stuff, nor nearly as many armed people in the first place.

3. So, NYC is a place where they have a zero-tolerance attitude, but based on the law, not on self-administered justice, which might be more common outside NYC. I believe in organization and regulation - even if that means restricting the freedom of the individual - without them there would not have been great civilization in the first place. Sumeria, Egypt, Rome etc. would have been unthinkable without putting the state above the individual.

4. Well, whatever it means in the US, if it means that the parents play teachers and that the children are taught at home instead of within groups of other children, I am against it. And if you mean by it that you have external teachers coming to your home in order to teach your kids according to official curricula, it is basically nothing but an unofficial school. The only difference being you deprive your kids of the chance to interact with kids from all walks of life.
In Germany any type of homeschooling is prohibited by law, parents who keep their children from attending schools are fined quite drastically (and can even go to jail if fines don't help), and rightly so. All of Europe (except maybe Britain to a certain degree) are much more socially oriented, we are more focused on society as a whole rather than the individual. Both ways are no good if taken too far. But most Europeans don't believe it is worth having a few very successful kids when at the same time others are left behind, they just don't believe in elitism. Poverty will always hit back on society as a whole. Thus I am an egalitarian.
If a country has good curricula and invests enough in its schools, there is simply no need for homeschooling. If HR departments of US companies are interested in home-schooled people, it might say a lot about the neglected school system, not about the need for homeschooling. They just prefer the lesser evil, one might say. But I don't think that justifies freeing the state from its responsibilities. Homeschooling is like treating the symptom, rather than eliminating the source of the problem.


I guess with freedom the goal is to find a reasonable compromise between the freedom OF desired aspects and the freedom FROM undesired aspects.

Last edited by Neuling; 03-22-2009 at 10:15 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2009, 10:19 AM
 
2,776 posts, read 1,911,580 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
1. It certainly is at least part of the problem. The freedom and lack of regulation (or at least enforcement of them) here makes it relatively easy for instance to withhold taxes. And people use that possibility, thus the Portuguese state is always short of money. At the same time hardly anywhere else in Europe is the gap between the rich and the poor as broad as here in Portugal. Same goes for Britain, also a rather "free" country within Europe, but its society also pays a high price for it. Other countries with a history similar to that of Portugal, e.g. Spain, are way better off by the way.

2. Of course you will only hear wild-west mentality from foreigners, it is not exactly something to be proud of, thus why would Americans themselves use it to describe their own country? And you shouldn't assume we just watch burglars etc. shooting our families here in Europe. The difference is that due to much stricter gun laws and stronger social systems we simply don't have as many poor people looking for easy ways to get to material stuff, nor nearly as many armed people in the first place.

3. So, NYC is a place where they have a zero-tolerance attitude, but based on the law, not on self-administered justice, which might be more common outside NYC. I believe in organization and regulation - even if that means restricting the freedom of the individual - without them there would not have been great civilization in the first place. Sumeria, Egypt, Rome etc. would have been unthinkable without putting the state above the individual.

4. Well, whatever it means in the US, if it means that the parents play teachers and that the children are taught at home instead of within groups of other children, I am against it. And if you mean by it that you have external teachers coming to your home in order to teach your kids according to official curricula, it is basically nothing but an unofficial school. The only difference being you deprive your kids of the chance to interact with kids from all walks of life.
In Germany any type of homeschooling is prohibited by law, parents who keep their children from attending schools are fined quite drastically (and can even go to jail if fines don't help), and rightly so. All of Europe (except maybe Britain to a certain degree) are much more socially oriented, we are more focused on society as a whole rather than the individual. Both ways are no good if taken too far. But most Europeans don't believe it is worth having a few very successful kids when at the same time others are left behind, they just don't believe in elitism. Poverty will always hit back on society as a whole. Thus I am an egalitarian.
If a country has good curricula and invests enough in its schools, there is simply no need for homeschooling. If HR departments of US companies are interested in home-schooled people, it might say a lot about the neglected school system, not about the need for homeschooling. They just prefer the lesser evil, one might say. But I don't think that justifies freeing the state from its responsibilities. Homeschooling is like treating the symptom, rather than eliminating the source of the problem.


I guess with freedom the goal is to find a reasonable compromise between the freedom OF desired aspects and the freedom FROM undesired aspects.
1) Let's not discuss further about Portugal as the point that more regulated countries have less poor and are more economically well off overall just doesn't have merit past or present; it also only barely has anything to do with this thread. Communism and Socialism as models of highly or completely regulated economies haven't bridged the gap between the haves and have-nots anywhere now or in the past, nor have they consistently led to a quality of life which most of the world aspire for.

2) People don't discuss the "wild west" of the US "in the US" because it didn't exist in the way Hollywood has represented for entertainment purposes. It has nothing to do with embarrassment - why would I, any of my friends, or family be embarrassed about what happened in the past of the US, before we were born or more importantly before the vast majority of us even had ancestors who immigrated to this country? That would just be silly. Most of the stories told and retold over an over again (like Billy the Kid, Tombstone, the Alamo, etc) when based in any historical fact are about very specific people and a meer handful of specific towns. I admire the fact the early Americans were willing to go out into the wilderness and stake their claim, raise families, and establish something out of nothing with their own two hands. I look at where we are today in the US and see how it has been quite an enormous achievement to get to where we are today from where the US was just 150 years ago.

3) I don't understand your #3 at all. What are you trying to say? Have you been to NYC? Do you know what its geography really spans (you know it's not just Manhattan right?)? Do you know the history of it and the metro area? You do realize that the entire rest of NY funds all the programs NYC has via taxes and high prices for nearly everything right? Yes, that's right. NYC cannot afford to support itself and never has. Also, NYC is a city, not a country and I don't understand why you keep bringing it up in comparisons to countries. I've lived there, as well as all up and down the East Coast of the US and now in the Midwestern US. I've lived and was educated in 17 US cities and I am a world traveler having been to your country and many others across Europe. NYC is not a benchmark city of excellence in the US. It's large and well populated, it does have a lot of very tall buildings, a great subway system, and a density of businesses you don't see too many other places of the world. It does have crime though, and the cost of living there is ridiculously high (I'm not exaggerating, the cost of having so much "regulation" and "protection" and so many services is immense). Raising a family in NYC isn't ideal, my wife and I thought long and hard about doing it, but quite frankly it's just doesn't have a whole lot going for it in that regard. Great to visit, great for everyone to actually see at least once, but definitely not the place I or other US citizens would idealize.

4) You seem to have only cursory knowledge of home-schooling, specifically how it is done today in the US - but you're writing as though it is a bad thing. Everything you need has been posted online for you to become knowledgeable in the subject. Your point about Germany outlawing homeschooling is interesting, but hardly enticing to me. I don't want the government to have final say on what my children need to learn and when. When you give that much control over to an agency (government or corporate) you lose the ability to protect your children or yourself from harmful influences of bad or incompetent people. I'm sure Hitler loved the ease he had in teaching nearly an entire generation of Germans what he thought was right and important. Just as I'm certain that PRC's Jintao likes being able to filter all the media, books, internet traffic citizens have access to. I don't see those things as a good thing.

5) The truth is that I am suspect of government control of just about anything. I am also suspect of corporate control as well. That doesn't mean that I want complete non-control of everything; it just means that I know at a fundamental level there are ALWAYS cheaters and bad people who manage to ruin things for the rest of the human population when given any power and influence. Look at the history of any government and you will see evidence of greed, oppression of ideas and new technologies, prejudice, and very poor decision-making. I actually have worked for the past 10 years for a Top 20 Global Corporation and can tell you I've seen a microcosm of what I just described there as well throughout my tenure serving and managing global teams.

I know that people are generally "good"... as far as I'm concerned, that is a fact that my many years on this planet has confirmed. Unfortunately, it's the few people who for one reason or another aren't "good" that we have to be very careful about. Additionally, although some people today are very competent or talented doing the things they do, there are many who just flat out aren't as bright or knowledgeable in their sphere of influence or expertise area as they should be. It's those few bad or incompetent which I want to protect myself and children from. That protection might take the form of developing the skill to use firearms and having the right to own one for defense. Or that protection might just be having the right to make decisions about where my children go to school, what they learn, and what they can to be when they grow up.

Lastly, if you think freedom and liberty is something which needs to be given up to enjoy a good life then I cannot but feel we're at an impasse. Throughout the history of mankind enough wars have been waged, including revolutions, to reveal to me and most others walking the earth today that freedom is something which is extremely valuable and absolutely worth protecting. No doubt there are things which need to be changed for continued human progress and innovation to happen for every nation on the planet, but taking away the right to make one's own decisions, to learn what and how you want, and to determine your own life path aren't on my top-ten list. The egalitarian viewpoint is interesting, and ultimately if not for cheaters and widespread incompetence I'd say we could adopt it with great enthusiasm and success. Since we don't live in an ideal world, it simply is an ideal we can conjecture about and compare with when discussing real world economic and government models which can be implemented.

Last edited by belovenow; 03-23-2009 at 10:30 AM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-23-2009, 11:14 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
18,600 posts, read 15,895,452 times
Reputation: 7457
I did not say we are to give up our freedom and liberty in order to enjoy a good life, as you put it into my mouth. I do think, however, that we have to give it up TO A CERTAIN DEGREE, yes, simply because there is not enough space for everyone to have their freedom without restrictions. Maybe you did not read my last sentence...

But I agree that we are at an impasse, the European way of thinking is just different from the American one (although of course there are exceptions on both sides). Most Europeans simply don't think that they can protect their families with firearms or by simply avoiding contact with certain strata of society. I guess the different tradition of thought also shows in things like the attitude towards the death penalty, or the way we look at, think of, and treat the rest of the world, etc.

I guess it also depends on what one expects from life. In some parts of the world society is simply more important than the individual, in others it is the other way round. I think both are dangerous if taken too far. But in my view I guess the interests of society as a whole should rank higher than an individual's wish to fulfill himself or herself. To me many Americans seem a bit paranoid and egoistic, judging from my tradition. I guess the Anglo-Saxon tradition also differs in that business is much more important. I used to work for a big Texan company for many years, and it struck me how much people there talked about business even outside the office. With most Europeans you just don't find that, to us business is more like going to the toilet, something that unfortunately cannot be avoided, but should not be given more attention that it deserves.

Anyway, nice talking to someone who does not put his opposing views in words they way it is done on certain other forums
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2013 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $99,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Indiana
Similar Threads
View detailed profiles of:

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top