More about Public Transportation (Indianapolis, Franklin: how much, calculator, taxes)
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Ah, another BS excuse! How do you explain Chicago. The "L" is very successful, more crime, more poverty, more thugs but yet it does what it's supposed to do with very little incident. Same for the NY Subway System, LA, Philly who runs out into Camden. Next excuse. Even with South Shore making the stop in Downtown Gary (a major stop), with a lot of south county residents making the trip daily into Chicago with very little incident.
Ah, another BS excuse! How do you explain Chicago. The "L" is very successful, more crime, more poverty, more thugs but yet it does what it's supposed to do with very little incident. Same for the NY Subway System, LA, Philly who runs out into Camden. Next excuse. Even with South Shore making the stop in Downtown Gary (a major stop), with a lot of south county residents making the trip daily into Chicago with very little incident.
"very little incident' ---- ever walk home from the green line late at night? remember incident reports only clock what happens in the station not once you leave the station. it is the streets that need to be made safe b4 people get out of their cars to ride the rails.
You have yet to show where it wouldn't work when we have real world examples of where it does. Charlotte Lynx, with approx. 200 ppm more than Indy so it is very comparable.
The density of Charlotte on the face is comparable to Indy. However, I would need to know a bit more. For example, is Charlotte spread over a huge land mass, yet the bulk of the population lives primarily in an area of about 30-40%?
Quote:
Originally Posted by msamhunter
The example of the Norfolk line as a reader posted.
A bad example. As I pointed out, the density of Norfolk is said to be almost twice that of Indianapolis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by msamhunter
All varying forms by your own methodology should not work but for some reason do.
How do you define "work?" Is it based on the number of riders? Is it based on a self-supporting system where the actual users pay enough in fees to cover the costs? I've read that there is no transit system in the US where fees even come close to covering the costs of the system. Maybe that poster was wrong in that claim. So in my opinion, unless user fees cover 100% of the costs of the system, the system hasn't worked. More in-depth analysis would have to be looked at as well. What was the tax rate pre and post. Did the hike in taxes cause people to cut back in disposable spending which in-turn negatively impacted local business? For example, since the Indy plan wants taxes from people in the surrounding counties, if the taxes cause people in St. Paul, IN from eating out as much at local restaurants, and those restaurants close, those job loses should be recorded in the same manner that there might be job gains in Fishers. Of course the transit people are going to hold up all the "jobs created," but won't do a study to see if the tax hike has caused people to spend less money in their local economy.
I guess it all comes down to how one defines success. Some folks think nothing is successful unless it is government owned, operated, and controlled and money from the masses is stolen, I mean taxes, to support said success. The more tax payer money needed, especially "regional taxes," the more they claim the underlying project is a "success" and "works." United Socialist States of America...that's what this country should have been named.
A bad example. As I pointed out, the density of Norfolk is said to be almost twice that of Indianapolis.
You are wrong. Norfolk density is 1,684 sq mi to Indianapolis' 2,273 sq mi. How is Norfolk's density twice that of Indianapolis? What you are pointing out is an error in fact.
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Originally Posted by Dyadic
You are wrong. Norfolk density is 1,684 sq mi to Indianapolis' 2,273 sq mi. How is Norfolk's density twice that of Indianapolis? What you are pointing out is an error in fact.
The density of Charlotte on the face is comparable to Indy. However, I would need to know a bit more. For example, is Charlotte spread over a huge land mass, yet the bulk of the population lives primarily in an area of about 30-40%?
A bad example. As I pointed out, the density of Norfolk is said to be almost twice that of Indianapolis.
How do you define "work?" Is it based on the number of riders? Is it based on a self-supporting system where the actual users pay enough in fees to cover the costs? I've read that there is no transit system in the US where fees even come close to covering the costs of the system. Maybe that poster was wrong in that claim. So in my opinion, unless user fees cover 100% of the costs of the system, the system hasn't worked. More in-depth analysis would have to be looked at as well. What was the tax rate pre and post. Did the hike in taxes cause people to cut back in disposable spending which in-turn negatively impacted local business? For example, since the Indy plan wants taxes from people in the surrounding counties, if the taxes cause people in St. Paul, IN from eating out as much at local restaurants, and those restaurants close, those job loses should be recorded in the same manner that there might be job gains in Fishers. Of course the transit people are going to hold up all the "jobs created," but won't do a study to see if the tax hike has caused people to spend less money in their local economy.
I guess it all comes down to how one defines success. Some folks think nothing is successful unless it is government owned, operated, and controlled and money from the masses is stolen, I mean taxes, to support said success. The more tax payer money needed, especially "regional taxes," the more they claim the underlying project is a "success" and "works." United Socialist States of America...that's what this country should have been named.
Not even in NYC are all the costs covered by ridership and they average 8 million riders a day. Public Transportation is an expensive venture but for larger populations it's a necessity. Let's take our closet city with Mass Transit, which is Chicago. I don't know the current costs now for ridership between CTA, Metra and Pace all of which falls under their Regional Transit Authority. They are funded by sales tax, easiest tax to do it with in all honesty, state matching, along with some "other" forms of funding and of course help offset by their ridership. CTA is by far the largest as it's Buses and the "L". Metra is rail from the suburbs into Downtown and PACE is suburban bus. South Shore is the Indiana side and lets off its final destination at Millenium Station (I am only including South Shore because you can access it's schedule from the RTA Web site). Of course Metra can connect to the 'L' at certain stations and PACE at certain stations.
With that premise, Indianapolis will never hit the density of Chicago due to land size let alone population, but you take the average rider with a monthly pass of say 86 dollars,(I think that's CTA monthly) from Hamilton County into downtown Indianapolis and they've cut their weekly transportation bill by more than half assuming you fill up your car twice a weak or minimum ever 8 days. You then take out the $120 monthly parking fee you have for the premium downtown spots or the 85-90 bucks a month for everywhere else and you, the average Joe citizen are in the black a couple of hundred bucks a month just going to and from work. Even if Hamilton County enacted a .75% tax for light rail, you the average Joe are still personally in the black even with that xtra .75% increase in taxes.
Marion County of course would probably pay more because the bulk of the lines would be in Marion County, even at 1.25% which I think is Cook County right now, you personally are still in the black with a 86 dollar monthly fare. For someone coming up from Southern Franklin Township to say Keystone at the Crossing or Park 100, you are filling up twice a week guaranteed at around 50 bucks for a smaller tank in your car. What makes more sense, 86 a month or 400 a month? Even if you went south to downtown, you are still filling up at minimum every 8 days, $50 for a small tank and you are still faced with $86 vs. $200 + monthly downtown parking. Again, which is the better deal here. One of the things about public transportation if people used it, would still end up being cheaper to use public transportation and a higher tax than to have no tax and drive everywhere because you end up paying more to just drive, and road maintenance that you do pay for and more frequently like we do now. You also alleviate the need for parking spaces downtown. At 78k spaces which downtown Indianapolis currently has, you make room for growth and infill that's needed as well as additional green space.
Research Chicago History, the "L" as it's known today wasn't a result of Chicago being uber dense, it became uber dense because of the "L" and a business taking a chance that it would pan out. Low and behold it did as they have 1.6m riders a day between bus and train. Indianapolis doesn't need that. For the month of September, IndyGo ridership was 864,427 according to their web site. That's 27k (29 routes) riders a day for a crap service that federal, state and county dollars go into. If you are going to pay at least pay to do it right because Marion County already pays, Indiana citizens already pay at least pay to do it right and efficient.
Also, do not assume lower density areas will not drive a shorter distance to a station as compared to the full trip. NWI is less dense than Indianapolis but it's easier from someone living in Merrillville, Hobart, Munster, Valpo etc. to drive to either the Lake Street station or Adam Benjamin in dt Gary or even the Hammond Station than to make the full trek into Chicago and if you work in the Western Burbs in Chicago like my sister, that's a b&%^ of a commute by car.
You are wrong. Norfolk density is 1,684 sq mi to Indianapolis' 2,273 sq mi. How is Norfolk's density twice that of Indianapolis? What you are pointing out is an error in fact.
Where are you getting your data from? Wikipedia shows Norfolk VA with a density of 1,684 people per square kilometer or 4,362 people square mile. Wiki shows the density for Indy to be 861 people per square kilometer or 2,273 people per square mile. You are using the same 1,684 figure that is displayed on Wiki as people per sq km, not sq mile.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyadic
You're right. I stand corrected.
Fun here in America where we love the good old Mile but in Europe they want to kilo up the meter . General rule of thumb is if its in KM then you would want to double that number to get the square mile number.
Also Charlotte is probably less dense but it is not consolidated with Mecklenburg county which gives it a disadvantage in terms of federal funding/easier to provide services/taxes etc.
another thing about Density in Indy is it can only go up due to the fact were not able to annex anymore land. So as Franklin Township and Decatur Township is developed i think Indy can get around 3k density in the near future and then really consider light rail etc.
However for our mass transit needs now we need to just use buses and bus rapid transit etc.
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