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Old 12-19-2011, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Earth
2,190 posts, read 1,276,947 times
Reputation: 952
Wow! so according to what she said if all the BRT lines will be replace with rail transit we could rank us 2nd behind Chicago putting us ahead of Minneapolis and St Louis. Looking at the map that's a lot of rail lines even more than St Louis's Metrolink. The BRT lines (replaced) added to the existing lightrail and rail line system. That's a pretty sizable system. I hope it gets built. I will be one of the first to live near a station and take the train to work when fuel reaches 8 bucks a gallon.
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Old 12-19-2011, 01:37 PM
 
977 posts, read 775,705 times
Reputation: 935
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist View Post
Wow! so according to what she said if all the BRT lines will be replace with rail transit we could rank us 2nd behind Chicago putting us ahead of Minneapolis and St Louis. Looking at the map that's a lot of rail lines even more than St Louis's Metrolink. The BRT lines (replaced) added to the existing lightrail and rail line system. That's a pretty sizable system. I hope it gets built. I will be one of the first to live near a station and take the train to work when fuel reaches 8 bucks a gallon.
IF the original 3 rail lines ( DT to Noblesville, Zionsville, and Franklin) get built, and IF all of the BRT actually gets built, and IF all of the BRT gets converted to rail, and IF no other major midwestern cities make similar improvements, then yes, Indianapolis may have the third most extensive rail network in the region.

I'm glad they seem to be focusing on what can be turned into rail immediately (NE side) and BRT first as that offers the best bang for the buck. This is definitely a huge step in the right direction, and with the proper density infill, there could be conversion of certain BRT lines to rail.

I don't think other cities are going to sit still, though. St. Louis has one line in the pipeline, two other lines where they've formally identified a preferred route, 2 or 3 others in various planning stages, and 3 BRT lines. It will come down to cash just like Indy's situation.

No city will get everything in its LT plan, because the Fed will grant funding based upon need. As Indy's system grows, they will likely see greater need elsewhere, whether that's in Cincinnati, Nashville, Louisville, or wheever, to get something started.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:27 AM
 
860 posts, read 839,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago76 View Post
I'm glad they seem to be focusing on what can be turned into rail immediately (NE side) and BRT first as that offers the best bang for the buck. This is definitely a huge step in the right direction, and with the proper density infill, there could be conversion of certain BRT lines to rail.
This is a step in the wrong direction. The silly rail train will have a price tag of around $600M. I know most folks don't care anymore, because they support Keynesian economic theory. They figure it doesn't hurt the economy if we jack taxes a little, and run the printing presses full steam ahead. I've read elsewhere that the Fishers to downtown express bus could only gather enough riders to justify three buses. So for roughly 150 or so people, we want to give them a train for half a billion?

Of course the same cheerleaders that scream "rail at any cost!" are likely the same folks who blasted the bridge to nowhere project. They are actually one in the same.

I fully support the bus idea, but rail is just a waste of money. Of course it "looks cool" and the money involved is enough to get all politicians and insiders excited. They see $$$ for themselves, their family members, and friends. They make the windfall, and income earners in Hamilton Co. and Marion Co. get to subsidized rich folks train ride from Noblesville and Fishers. Not only that, I wonder how someone in say Franklin Township will feel about helping skyrocket property values for the few who happen to live within 1/2 mile of a train stop while their property values continue to languish?

I think this is why some want politicians to vote directly on this project. They know the corruption and cronyism is enough to likely this this pass (ie: Mr. Councilman, if you vote for the tax hike, your recently college graduated son/daughter will magically get a two year $30K/year entry level job at my construction firm.), regardless of what voters think. Thankfully, it appears we get to hold a referendum, and I think the results will finally say once and for all what people are willing to pay for. If I was Indy Connect, I would have two questions, one that discusses the tax rate for the bus portion and one that discusses it for the rail portion. Maybe folks wouldn't mind paying $30/year for expanded bus service, but don't want to pay around $120ish/year for some silly fixed rail that only benefits a few at the expense of the many.
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:34 AM
 
Location: Chicago
1,231 posts, read 716,065 times
Reputation: 1283
Quote:
Originally Posted by indy_317 View Post
...They figure it doesn't hurt the economy if we jack taxes a little, and (1)run the printing presses full steam ahead. I've read elsewhere that the Fishers to downtown express bus could only gather enough riders to justify three buses. (2)So for roughly 150 or so people, we want to give them a train for half a billion?

(3)Of course the same cheerleaders that scream "rail at any cost!" are likely the same folks who blasted the bridge to nowhere project. They are actually one in the same.

I fully support the bus idea, but rail is just a waste of money. Of course it "looks cool" and the money involved is enough to get all politicians and insiders excited. They see $$$ for themselves, their family members, and friends. They make the windfall, and income earners in Hamilton Co. and Marion Co. get to (4) subsidized rich folks train ride from Noblesville and Fishers. Not only that, I wonder how someone in say Franklin Township will feel about helping skyrocket property values for the few who happen to live within 1/2 mile of a train stop while their property values continue to languish?..
1. "All money is a matter of belief."
-Adam Smith
2. 150 people? Maybe. But I find that hard to believe that only 150 people would use a bus from Fishers to Indy due to the fact the I-69 and I-465 interchange sees 150,000 CARS A DAY. (That's how many cars use the Brooklyn Bridge a day as well.)

3. A bridge designed for use with vehicles that run on oil will no longer serve it's purpose when there is no more oil to make the vehicles go. Electricity, on the other hand, will always be here, and we will never "run out" of electricity.

4. Do you mean the rich folks who drive big cars that get less than a dozen miles to the gallon? Are we talking about the same people who think because they are rich and drive big cars, they can do whatever they want on the roads so long as they get where they're going? People that don't want to wait their turn to exit the interstate and jump ahead of everyone in line and cut off people sending a shockwave of stopped traffic to everyone behind them?


Those people? Yeah, get those people off the road and on a train.

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Old 12-20-2011, 04:39 AM
 
Location: Fishers, IN
5,626 posts, read 5,929,366 times
Reputation: 2936
Quote:
Originally Posted by indy_317 View Post
This is a step in the wrong direction. The silly rail train will have a price tag of around $600M. I know most folks don't care anymore, because they support Keynesian economic theory. They figure it doesn't hurt the economy if we jack taxes a little, and run the printing presses full steam ahead. I've read elsewhere that the Fishers to downtown express bus could only gather enough riders to justify three buses. So for roughly 150 or so people, we want to give them a train for half a billion?

Of course the same cheerleaders that scream "rail at any cost!" are likely the same folks who blasted the bridge to nowhere project. They are actually one in the same.

I fully support the bus idea, but rail is just a waste of money. Of course it "looks cool" and the money involved is enough to get all politicians and insiders excited. They see $$$ for themselves, their family members, and friends. They make the windfall, and income earners in Hamilton Co. and Marion Co. get to subsidized rich folks train ride from Noblesville and Fishers. Not only that, I wonder how someone in say Franklin Township will feel about helping skyrocket property values for the few who happen to live within 1/2 mile of a train stop while their property values continue to languish?

I think this is why some want politicians to vote directly on this project. They know the corruption and cronyism is enough to likely this this pass (ie: Mr. Councilman, if you vote for the tax hike, your recently college graduated son/daughter will magically get a two year $30K/year entry level job at my construction firm.), regardless of what voters think. Thankfully, it appears we get to hold a referendum, and I think the results will finally say once and for all what people are willing to pay for. If I was Indy Connect, I would have two questions, one that discusses the tax rate for the bus portion and one that discusses it for the rail portion. Maybe folks wouldn't mind paying $30/year for expanded bus service, but don't want to pay around $120ish/year for some silly fixed rail that only benefits a few at the expense of the many.
If, as you say, only 150 people wanted to ride the bus from Fishers to downtown, then I struggle to understand why you believe that folks in HC who live near the rail line will benefit from "skyrocketing" property values. There's no benefit unless there's a demand for the train.
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:13 PM
 
860 posts, read 839,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb View Post
If, as you say, only 150 people wanted to ride the bus from Fishers to downtown, then I struggle to understand why you believe that folks in HC who live near the rail line will benefit from "skyrocketing" property values. There's no benefit unless there's a demand for the train.
I make the mistake here of putting known facts together with a future prediction made by Indy Connect. You are right, it makes no idea. However, it actually gives two reasons not to vote for the plan if you don't live near the rail line:

#1: If facts show that suburban folks in Fishers and Noblesville won't use the system, then there is no reason to build it. Most of those residents moved to that area knowning full well the traffic issues. Stop expanding roads and let these people sit in traffic for an additional 30-45 mins.. They can adjust their life however they want (leave early, work late, etc.) or sit in traffic, or change jobs. Until Fishers, Noblesville, and the Castleton area have the density of NYC, no rail for them. Or, allow them to have their rail, so long as only they are paying for it: The tax needed to build the rail system should only apply to those living in Fishers, Noblesville, Lawrence Township, and Center Township (Washington as well if the train passes through that township).

#2: If we actually build this, and people actually come, then Indy Connect is right on how popular transit will be. If that is the case, housing prices and demand will spike along the rail line (say within five miles). So if your trying to sell your home in Carmel, good luck. If your trying to sell your home in McCordsville, good luck. Same for S. Marion County, Warren, Pike, and Wayne Townships. Housing prices in those area will likely drop as now everyone looking to buy a home will be flocking to areas near the rail line (If you believe what the pro-rail folks claim. I should have made that clear in my original post. I don't think that will happen, but we are told that is what will happen. If this gets built, I guess we shall see.).
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Old 12-20-2011, 12:14 PM
 
860 posts, read 839,860 times
Reputation: 527
Quote:
Originally Posted by A2DAC1985 View Post
1. "All money is a matter of belief."
-Adam Smith
The day we have free food, water, and shelter for people is the day I will support that quote. Money isn't a "matter of belief." If you take $150 away from me, that is $150 of food I can't buy. It is $150 of water I can't buy. It means my shelter affordability just decreased by $150. I believe in money because money gives me the things needed to survive as a human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A2DAC1985 View Post
3. A bridge designed for use with vehicles that run on oil will no longer serve it's purpose when there is no more oil to make the vehicles go. Electricity, on the other hand, will always be here, and we will never "run out" of electricity.
Electricity won't always be here, but it will likely be available more so than oil, and even natural gas. However, the problem is that no one wants nuclear power, which is the only way to generate the true power needed to power major cities. As people may eventually funnel into city centers, I would say that is the time to start building rail networks, maybe even between population centers. However, that isn't happening, and I would argue that rail lines 40+ miles long serving one city isn't very pro-urban either.
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:08 PM
 
2,738 posts, read 1,982,660 times
Reputation: 1230
Quote:
Originally Posted by indy_317 View Post
I make the mistake here of putting known facts together with a future prediction made by Indy Connect. You are right, it makes no idea. However, it actually gives two reasons not to vote for the plan if you don't live near the rail line:

#1: If facts show that suburban folks in Fishers and Noblesville won't use the system, then there is no reason to build it. Most of those residents moved to that area knowning full well the traffic issues. Stop expanding roads and let these people sit in traffic for an additional 30-45 mins.. They can adjust their life however they want (leave early, work late, etc.) or sit in traffic, or change jobs. Until Fishers, Noblesville, and the Castleton area have the density of NYC, no rail for them. Or, allow them to have their rail, so long as only they are paying for it: The tax needed to build the rail system should only apply to those living in Fishers, Noblesville, Lawrence Township, and Center Township (Washington as well if the train passes through that township).

#2: If we actually build this, and people actually come, then Indy Connect is right on how popular transit will be. If that is the case, housing prices and demand will spike along the rail line (say within five miles). So if your trying to sell your home in Carmel, good luck. If your trying to sell your home in McCordsville, good luck. Same for S. Marion County, Warren, Pike, and Wayne Townships. Housing prices in those area will likely drop as now everyone looking to buy a home will be flocking to areas near the rail line (If you believe what the pro-rail folks claim. I should have made that clear in my original post. I don't think that will happen, but we are told that is what will happen. If this gets built, I guess we shall see.).
Indy let me ask you something. How do you feel about paying for roads YOU personally will never use? Will you ever use Cline Avenue in Lake County? US 41? How about the hundreds of Indianapolis streets that YOU personally will never drive on that your taxes are used for? While your at it, I don't know if you have children but if you didn't, you still have to pay for the public schools. Every state park, you pay for, every city park your funds go for upkeep; parks you will NEVER use are maintained with your tax dollars. These are things you pay for, I pay for and every other tax payer even though we don't use them but other taxpayers do. This is no different, if it's approved, use or don't because at the end of the day, expanded transit than the meager 27 fixed routes IndyGo runs now is just too inadequate.

Ronnie, give a break with that Narnian crap, it's idiotic at best and I'm being kind about it so Domer don't come down on me.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Earth
2,190 posts, read 1,276,947 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago76 View Post
IF the original 3 rail lines ( DT to Noblesville, Zionsville, and Franklin) get built, and IF all of the BRT actually gets built, and IF all of the BRT gets converted to rail, and IF no other major midwestern cities make similar improvements, then yes, Indianapolis may have the third most extensive rail network in the region.

I'm glad they seem to be focusing on what can be turned into rail immediately (NE side) and BRT first as that offers the best bang for the buck. This is definitely a huge step in the right direction, and with the proper density infill, there could be conversion of certain BRT lines to rail.

I don't think other cities are going to sit still, though. St. Louis has one line in the pipeline, two other lines where they've formally identified a preferred route, 2 or 3 others in various planning stages, and 3 BRT lines. It will come down to cash just like Indy's situation.

No city will get everything in its LT plan, because the Fed will grant funding based upon need. As Indy's system grows, they will likely see greater need elsewhere, whether that's in Cincinnati, Nashville, Louisville, or wheever, to get something started.
Then let the games begin.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:17 PM
 
7,477 posts, read 5,117,506 times
Reputation: 2972
Where's broadrippledude?
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