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Old 02-12-2012, 08:05 PM
 
583 posts, read 402,242 times
Reputation: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by domergurl View Post
Ok Greg ... you've done NOTHING, but take a whizz on Indy's parade, and to what end?
This is a little scary, really. Indianapolis people are actually afraid to have rational discussions for fear of what might be revealed? That's not inquiry; that's religion.

Over 95% of Indy had no parade, only downtown and the airport, but everyone in the city and in the surrounding counties had to pay for it. That's immoral. Some people in this country still have the guts to stand up for what's right.

Quote:
Are you hoping for a collective "oh my gosh, Greg!!!! You're soooooooooo right! Indy is soooooooooo boring!" Seriously dude.
This is an economic question, how do you infer "boring" from a discussion of economics? Seriously, sister.

Quote:
Indianapolis got to shine for a few hours ... let it be.
This is tiresome. The question is whether taxpayers made money, not whether Indy got to "shine," whatever that means. Taxpayers shouldn't be taxed because some of their neighbors are insecure. Also note that the "shine" was almost nationally imperceptible and will quickly fade.

Quote:
Do cities EVER make money on the Super Bowl?
Never. Remind your Mayor should he again bid to transfer taxpayer dollars to the NFL.

 
Old 02-12-2012, 08:12 PM
 
Location: Fishers, IN
5,656 posts, read 6,115,850 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregHenry View Post
It's disappointing how quickly Americans forget their history.

Indianapolis could reap $365 million if it lands Super Bowl, Ball State study finds (http://www.bsu.edu/news/article/0,1370,--57989,00.html - broken link)

Be it $365 million or $120 million, Indianapolis clearly told the taxpayers they would make money from the Super Bowl.

If the Super Bowl wasn't supposed to return money to the taxpayers, just what exactly was it supposed to do for taxpayers?
The article to which you've linked refers to total revenue generated by Super Bowl activity, both through tax revenue and sales for local businesses. If measured that way, perhaps Indy did make money off of the Super Bowl. It'll take awhile for the numbers to become clear.

You're awfully quick to charge others with forgetting history quickly. You, on the other hand, seem to struggle with reading comprehension.

The net fiscal impact argument has been beaten to death. Most accept that there will wind up being a modest net fiscal deficit related to the Super Bowl that will be covered by CIB reserves.
 
Old 02-12-2012, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
3,590 posts, read 4,505,238 times
Reputation: 2145
Oh my gosh, Greg!!!! You're soooooooooo right! Indy is soooooooooo boring!
 
Old 02-12-2012, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis
3,900 posts, read 1,907,441 times
Reputation: 957
Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Greensboro Resident View Post
Oh my gosh, Greg!!!! You're soooooooooo right! Indy is soooooooooo boring!
As Msam said no place is boring just the person in itself is boring
 
Old 02-12-2012, 08:39 PM
 
4,071 posts, read 5,050,997 times
Reputation: 1492
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregHenry View Post
This is a little scary, really. Indianapolis people are actually afraid to have rational discussions for fear of what might be revealed? That's not inquiry; that's religion.

Over 95% of Indy had no parade, only downtown and the airport, but everyone in the city and in the surrounding counties had to pay for it. That's immoral. Some people in this country still have the guts to stand up for what's right.

This is an economic question, how do you infer "boring" from a discussion of economics? Seriously, sister.

This is tiresome. The question is whether taxpayers made money, not whether Indy got to "shine," whatever that means. Taxpayers shouldn't be taxed because some of their neighbors are insecure. Also note that the "shine" was almost nationally imperceptible and will quickly fade.

Never. Remind your Mayor should he again bid to transfer taxpayer dollars to the NFL.
I think I will chime in. I have some small business management experience and to be honest, I was quite successful at it. Sometimes you have to spend a little money to make even more money. Ever heard of a "loss leader"? Even if the city and county did not reap an actual profit from the event, this is going to help the image of the region in attracting more residents and businesses. And from that, new culture and entertainment facilities will spring up. Economics 101.

Since I don't live in or near Indy I am not completely up to date on a couple of things. First, was a tax levied to help defray the costs associated either directly or indirectly with this event? If so, will it sunset? And was a city or county wide referendum required before said tax was either approved or denied for this event? Was any private money used to help stage this event?

Hosting a successful Superbowl is generally a positive event for a region and in this case, I think it will have some people sit up and take notice that the Indianapolis area can compete with some larger metro areas for convention dollars and also new business.
 
Old 02-12-2012, 08:50 PM
 
1,802 posts, read 1,503,849 times
Reputation: 1257
The politicians told Indy that it could make money off of it because it COULD make money for the city....COULD. the articles even say that it's still undetermined. Thats call politics to get things passed or get what you want as a politician. You highlight the positives and ignore the negatives to get things done.

And corporate dollars funded a lot of the planning. Your argument about only downtown Indy benefiting is stupid because it brought pride to all of Indiana, was supported by most hoosiers statewide, and I know a ton of people that traveled to Indy for it. You can't please everyone. Additionally, all of Indiana benefits from having the colts in state, and the colts are subsidized mostly by the Indianapolis area. These decisions were made and supported by people that were elected to office. My tax dollars support all kind of things I don't benefit from. Half of Americans don't even pay any federal income taxes, yet benefit from the services. Thats just life.

Last edited by jman07; 02-12-2012 at 08:58 PM..
 
Old 02-12-2012, 09:01 PM
 
583 posts, read 402,242 times
Reputation: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by grmasterb View Post
The article to which you've linked refers to total revenue generated by Super Bowl activity, both through tax revenue and sales for local businesses. If measured that way, perhaps Indy did make money off of the Super Bowl. It'll take awhile for the numbers to become clear.

You're awfully quick to charge others with forgetting history quickly. You, on the other hand, seem to struggle with reading comprehension.

The net fiscal impact argument has been beaten to death. Most accept that there will wind up being a modest net fiscal deficit related to the Super Bowl that will be covered by CIB reserves.
The CIB has no reserves. It always runs at a deficit, and any cash it does come by are just taxpayer dollars.

Ogden on Politics: Former Lt. Governor John Mutz Ignores Reality, Cites Mayor Ballard's "Courageous Leadership" in Dealing With the Capital Improvement Board

Great article:

Super Bowl Lands on Taxpayers
 
Old 02-12-2012, 09:23 PM
 
Location: Fishers, IN
5,656 posts, read 6,115,850 times
Reputation: 2972
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregHenry View Post
The CIB has no reserves. It always runs at a deficit, and any cash it does come by are just taxpayer dollars.

Ogden on Politics: Former Lt. Governor John Mutz Ignores Reality, Cites Mayor Ballard's "Courageous Leadership" in Dealing With the Capital Improvement Board

Great article:

Super Bowl Lands on Taxpayers
You don't understand how the CIB could be running at an operating deficit but still have cash reserves? Are you really that obtuse, or is this just a lame attempt at being a contrarion?
 
Old 02-12-2012, 10:57 PM
 
1,055 posts, read 829,887 times
Reputation: 1090
Actually, if anything Greg, the only link that you provided with any sort of numbers behind it with actually supports the SB as a net benefit for the economy. For that I thank you.

The article:

City's Super Bowl spending | The Indianapolis Star | indystar.com

The bottom line in terms of city receipts is a $0.45 to $0.87 million deficit.

So where's the benefit?

The city's bottom line only captures its direct benefits: tax receipts vs. expenditures. What it doesn't include:

The extra $150 million that likely came into the economy. This figure isn't ridiculous: 50,000 visitors in the peak time x $500 per day (conservative considering actual hotel costs) = $25 million per day for 4 days or $100 million. Figure only half that for the lead up over the prior 4 days to get you to $150 million.

This is money into the pockets of someone. The state immediately gets their cut via income tax increases, which isn't considered in the city's bottom line. The hotels in the region also pay hotel taxes that aren't in the city's bottom line. Just as important is where that money goes. Some of this money gets sent up to corporate at places like Marriott, never to see the Indy economy again. Some of it simply never gets spent again but rather saved. Other money captured is nothing more than a guy taking his kids downtown when they otherwise would have gone to Chuck E Cheese and spent the same amount. You need to capture the incremental revenues. The muliplier effect from other SBs tells us that every $1.00 spent represents an incremental benefit of roughly 10% getting recirculated into the economy that otherwise wouldn't if the SB never came to town. In other words, that $150 million (conservative), results in a true economic benefit of $15 million. $15 million > deficit of less than a million by the city, so Indy is already ahead.

That money continues to make its way through the economy, with the state and city collecting taxes every time it is spent along the way (even more of a benefit).

Then there is the advertising of the city aspect, which according to Greg's articles is marginal. No dollars attached to that statement, mind you. Consider this: the average 30 second spot during the game cost $3.5 million. Do you really think these ads make me wanna buy a Chrysler? I don't, but someone has identified a benefit, otherwise they wouldn't spend the cash. Here's the reality: advertising is as much about the market you keep vs. the market you gain. Maintaining your current image is as valuable as improving it. If a 30 second commercial spot is worth $3.5 million, what do you think the press raves over multiple days is worth? More than that I think.

Plus there's that whole fun party thing.

What are the costs that are missing?

None really. Let's be honest: how many conventions in February did Indy miss out on hosting due to the Super Bowl? Zero. Did the businesses downtown make less money than they otherwise would have? Nope.

Critics will point out the cost of the new stadium. What they neglect to do is separate the fact that spending that money was about keeping the Colts in town. It wasn't about the Super Bowl. If people didn't want to keep the Colts in town, the money wouldn't have been spent. If they did, it would have. To think otherwise would be analogous to thinking that someone buys a $500,000 house to throw big parties on the 4th or to have 50 relatives over for dinner on Thanksgiving. That's not the reason they buy $500,000 houses. They may like to think that's why they buy them, but it's not the reason they do.

The bottom line is that the city spent an extra half to full million bucks to get at least $15 million into the pockets of people that will re-spend the cash here, maintain the cities image w/ no-cost advertising, and to throw a big party. We're talking a cost of less than $1.25 per Marion county resident before the other benefits are even considered. Less than a pack of chewing gum.

Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
 
Old 02-12-2012, 11:18 PM
 
326 posts, read 255,303 times
Reputation: 329
people who try and measure things like pro sports or symphony orchestras etc by a pure bottom line are really missing the big picture,a city can be measured by the diversity of its offerings..cities with less choices are less atttractive,especially to business leaders and young educated professionals. the publicity generated by indy with the super bowl and the downtown area improvements gives an image of a city that is thriving in an area of the country where most cities are in decline.invaluable pr
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