Urban Indy? (Indianapolis, Bloomington, Carmel: mover, construction loan, theatre)
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They r credible just like the reports from cities like downtowndenver, kc, cle and boston. Again knowing u those r credible yet indy would just lie. U do realize the things in their report is actually quantifiable unlike you who hasnt provided a single source.
Downtown Indy (a few square blocks) has an urban flavor during times of the day when there are a lot of visitors -- but when those people leave, the few residents that remain roll up the sidewalks and head to bed. But, who cares? Indy's calling card has never been being an urban city (trust me, no one outside of it thinks it is). What attracts people there is the low cost of living and simplicity of life. Once you start creating dense neighborhoods that goes out the window so I don't understand why it would be desired. Stick with its strengths.
I don't agree with this. I saw a movie a couple weeks ago. The show got out 1:00 on a Tuesday. I was shocked to see that there were still people walking the streets (not a lot, but still sizable), cruising places that were still open, or hanging out in the circle. I'm not sure if this was just a coincidence, but I'll have to venture downtown more at night to see. There are several colleges around Indy as well. Speaking as a twenty-something, downtown and Broad Ripple are popular places to visit at night. Mass become active at night as well, especially during the weekends.
Nevertheless, Indy isn't alone in its lack of being a 24 hour city. American cities have long been criticized for their lack of nightlife. And I think most of us are aware that people don't believe Indy is urban, especially on C-D. My op was to probe other people who also believed the downtown is urban, like I do.
Annual dt report: 83% of mc has visited dt year over year and 80% of sububanites have visited dt year over year. Source: indydt. Yes sporting events qualify. The venues r dowtown and placed there for a reason.
I think there is enough people to visit downtown, but what exactly are they there for? Is it to eat a place that isn't located in the surrounding area? If say Weber Grill was up in Carmel, or had a second location there, how many folks from Hamilton Co. would make fewer trips downtown if Weber was a place they liked to eat at?
I don't think sporting events qualify. If the stadium had been built in NW Shelby County, would those ticket holders not only travel to Shelby Co., but also downtown? It is like claiming that people are flocking to Shelbyville and Anderson for reasons unrelated to the casinos. If the casinos were built somewhere else, many of these people wouldn't drive to Shelbyville or Anderson as much as they do. Clearly LOS was built downtown for a reason, and that is to bring tens of thousands of people downtown to spend their money on things outside of the stadium. As far as people going to the game, downtown isn't bringing these people, the game is. The bars and such likely see a boost because the stadium is downtown. Again, if the stadium had been built in suburban farm fields, would thousands flock to downtown establishments during game days, or might they stay closer to home?
I disagree. Downtown Indy is always dead to the locals, while Downtown Cincy has lots of local vitality and relevance. Those aren't tourists jamming Findlay Market and Court St. I don't know your crowd, but for the North of 96th set, once the workday ends, nobody wants to come downtown Indy unless they absolutely need to.
Further, sporting events aren't real downtown activity and are excluded from any such discussions.
Residential occupancy directly reduces the claim of an area to be called "downtown."
1-The bulk of the Findley market crowd isn't suburbanites and it isn't in the CBD/DT. It's in OTR.
2-I don't know who your crowd is either, but if they don't venture DT after hours, they sound pretty dull to me. There are a lot of Hamilton Co types on Mass Ave, S Meridian at all hours on weekdays. Is it NYC, Chicago, SF? No. Indy is a medium sized metro without a lot of density around downtown, so naturally it isn't going to be teeming with people at 10pm on a Tuesday when a sports team isn't playing.
3-You don't know Cincy very well. There is a very deep divide between the suburbanites and their inner Cincy counterparts. I have heard numerous times, "You don't want to be down here after work. There is nothing but a bunch of sketchy people pandhandling. If you do end up relocating here, don't bother living near downtown." St. Louis has the same sort of suburb vs. central city divide. Cases in point: city v. county bickering, the abandonment of St. Louis Centre and slow death of Union Station, and walking around the city at 8 pm on a weekday or weekend and not seeing anyone else on the sidewalk for a couple blocks in either direction period. Any level of this in Indy is not remotely close.
4-You really think residential occupancy reduces the claim of an area being a "downtown" or in better terms a CBD? Really? Sez who? The simple fact of that matter is that old building once considered premier commerical venues regress to class B and C status, which means they will end up getting converted to residential settings. What was a nice office in 1900 or 1950 is not a nice office today. New residential builldings will be built too, because workers and residents in general like the amenities (work, cultural, and entertainment) found in a CBD. That is the nature of things. Chicago's CBD is the Loop, West Loop, S. Loop to Congress and River North somewhere between Kinzie and Chicago. 50,000 people live there. In 15 years, it will probably be 100K. Does that makie it less of a CBD? Per the US census, Indy's greater downtown (River to the tangle of 65-70 that basically encircles DT is about 13K. DT proper is probably 8K. That's still a decent number of people if you scrape away the chamber of commerce boosterism and look at the actual numbers across similarly sized cities. True DT Cincy is about 5K and DT STL (not DT West) is officially 3701. DT West is another 3900. Combined, it's roughly the same # of people as in DT Indy over 2x the land area.
5-Sporting events aren't real downtown activity? Really? If they are downtown, and they bring people to downtown, and they result in spending, going to restaurants, bars, shopping, etc, then they are downtown activity. Again, if you look at the # of people going to Colts and Pacers games and actually hanging out for a beer before/after a game, that's activity. Indy has that. Cincy and STL are much more in the mentality of: show up, watch game, and get the hell out of there.
1-The bulk of the Findley market crowd isn't suburbanites and it isn't in the CBD/DT. It's in OTR. There are a lot of Hamilton Co types on Mass Ave, S Meridian at all hours on weekdays.
You're funny. Findlay is 1.4 miles from Cincy's zero center, and Mass Ave. is 1.3 miles from Indy's zero center.
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2-I don't know who your crowd is either, but if they don't venture DT after hours, they sound pretty dull to me.
DT Indy is pretty dull to most Indy people. You like it. Others have no use for it, but Indy blows all the tax dollars down there. There are bars all over Indy. So, what? Most Indy residents have zero in common with the Mass Ave. people, anyway.
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3-You don't know Cincy very well. There is a very deep divide between the suburbanites and their inner Cincy counterparts. I have heard numerous times, "You don't want to be down here after work. There is nothing but a bunch of sketchy people pandhandling. If you do end up relocating here, don't bother living near downtown."
Well, I don't know who your crowd is, but if they don't venture DT Cincy after hours, they sound pretty dull to me. Further, your friends must never have visited Cincinnati, as there are many high-priced residences right across the river from Cincy's zero center.
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4-You really think residential occupancy reduces the claim of an area being a "downtown" or in better terms a CBD? Really? Sez who?
This is reality. Accept it.
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Chicago's CBD is the Loop, West Loop, S. Loop to Congress and River North somewhere between Kinzie and Chicago.
Don't forget the Gurney Loop, the Tinley Park Loop, the Streamwood Loop.
to me downtown indy feels more like orlando fla..while cincinnati has that old big city feel downtown.downtown indy and the area around the convention center feels almost like an area of hotels etc on a freeway interchange,i know im exaggerating to make a point but it has that feel ,even the new marriot is connected to what looks like a motel.
Indy does well in that regard among its mw peers. 1980 census 40k people lived within dowtown borders. Mid 1990'smajor dt pop dropped to around 10k. The city has done an admiral job rebuilding its core. I was arriving when the really started on lockerbie and transformed the old catholic hs @13th and meridian to the catholic center.
Those numbers are inflated across the board, but the general point does stand that Indy tends to have more residents per sq mi in its CBD than other cities of similar size. The true number for DT Indy is abt 8K. 13K when you extend west to the river and N/S/E to 65-70 to form a nice perimeter. That wasn't my point though. My point is that there isn't enough residential construction/supply DT, which is limiting supply, which is pushing prices up to much higher levels than you see in other cities when you look at housing prices in their respective metros. Case in point: research I did when looking at Chicago, STL, and Indy when we were trying to figure out where to live during a potential relocation. An apples to apples comparison follows.
If you want good schools, 2000 or later home, good access to DT (45 min or less) and secondary job centers (31 corridor in Carmel+Keystone), not a vinyl village, but no creme de la creme neighborhood or a site in a golf community or on the water at Geist, you're looking at maybe 100-110/sq ft in HSE/Carmel. STL analogy (Parkway schools W County) is 130/sq ft. Chicago it's Naperville away from town center at 175 for similar housing quality.
Similar quality, recent build (2000 or later), no major building assessment issues in the CBD for each (no Lake view in Chicago or in the heart of River North near a million and one bars and restaurants or some opulent high rise) would be ~150/sq ft in STL, ~175/sq ft in Indy and 200-225 sq ft in Chicago in the West Loop, parts of the S Loop and Loop w/out a lake view for example.
CBD premium in each city over nice suburban counterpart:
STL: 15%
Chicago: 20-25%
Indy: 50-60%
Indy doesn't have the same number of outlying urban neighborhoods to draw people away from DT, so DT is a much bigger relative pull. Yet the number of units is very, very low. Prices are relatively higher. You could probably add another 4K of units DT, which would increase supply and vitality without crushing prices. The city hasn't capitalized on this. You could take every parking lot bounded by Indiana, North, and Capitol+lot just north of AUL and build it out with ground floor retail, 3 storeys of parking podium and 9 storeys of 1000-2000 sq ft condos and totally change the game. That's actually only about 3000-3500 units, but a ton of new offerings to a quadrant of DT consumed by parking lots. Prices in the market would come down some, but not that much considering downtown would be altered for the better in terms of residents, which would draw more retail, more entertainment, and so on, making the area more attractive to more people and offsetting some of the supply flood. Parking garages would need to be constructed, but an 8 storey garage covering a quarter block would free up 2 city blocks for development.
Why this imbalance exists, I have no idea. If DT Indy had some amazing harborfront view, or horrible commutes into downtown, I could understand it. Obviously, those conditions don't exist in the city though.
You're beyond funny. You've resorted to making stuff up at this point. Sad really.
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Originally Posted by GregHenry
You're funny. Findlay is 1.4 miles from Cincy's zero center, and Mass Ave. is 1.3 miles from Indy's zero center.
Now you're just making stuff up. A-it is mathematically impossible to be any further from Monument Circle than 1.0 miles walking while still DT (1/2 walk north south + 1/2 mile E-W). As the crow flies on diagonals, no more than 0.7 miles. A high schooler with a semester of geometry could tell you that. The walk from MacNiven's for example to Monument Circle is 0.4 miles. Start point of Mass Ave, closer. Market is north of Liberty. Not DT period. That's like saying the Harrison home is DT...except that's actually closer to DT than the market is in Cincy. Comments like these leave me unsure you've ever been to Indy or Cincy.
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Originally Posted by GregHenry
Well, I don't know who your crowd is, but if they don't venture DT Cincy after hours, they sound pretty dull to me. Further, your friends must never have visited Cincinnati, as there are many high-priced residences right across the river from Cincy's zero center.
Not my crowd so much as it is clients who work DT in Cincy who make these comments unsolicited. Comments you hear with ridiculous frequency. Things heard rarely in Indy. Many high priced residences across the river? Scratches head trying to figure out how Covington KY is part of DT Cincy...
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Originally Posted by GregHenry
This is reality. Accept it.
Now it's reality that having people live in a CBD makes it not a CBD or somehow undermines it? Maybe in Gregland somewhere. Fact: the greatest CBD in the MW has a higher percentage of its metro residents living in the CBD than Indy. I guess that makes Chicago's CBD less of a CBD than Indy's then? Again, maybe in Gregland or Henryville or wherever.
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Originally Posted by GregHenry
Don't forget the Gurney Loop, the Tinley Park Loop, the Streamwood Loop.
Now I'm starting to think you've never been to Chicago. Aren't you supposed to be from there? West Loop, South Loop, and parts of River N? Definitely part of the CBD. Cushman Wakefield is probably a bit more of an authority on the topic than GregLandry, and they tend to think so too (p.2 for CBD submarkets): http://www.cushwake.com/cwmbs1q12/PD...gocbd_1q12.pdf
DT Indy is pretty dull to most Indy people. You like it. Others have no use for it, but Indy blows all the tax dollars down there. There are bars all over Indy. So, what? Most Indy residents have zero in common with the Mass Ave. people, anyway.
Most people in Metro Cincy have WAY LESS in common with the people who live in the city. I mean seriously, have you ever been to either city?
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Originally Posted by GregHenry
Well, I don't know who your crowd is, but if they don't venture DT Cincy after hours, they sound pretty dull to me. Further, your friends must never have visited Cincinnati, as there are many high-priced residences right across the river from Cincy's zero center.
Haha, no. Why don't you compare friday night in just the two block stretch of Meridian Street between Georgia and South Street to all of downtown Cincinnati? Oh wait, there is no comparison because one city (Indy) is packed with people until 3 or 4 AM, while the other is dead in comparison. Cincy does get busy after a Reds game, but you said sports and conventions don't count as activity, so I guess we can't count that.
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