Your Tax Dollars at Work Indianapolis

[Chicago76]

Originally Posted by indy_317

The facts remain, the entire USA economy was based, for at least three if not four decades, on folks with minimal education earning very good money.

And that economy was based upon the principle that we were one of very few economies in the world who could produce high quality industrial goods cheaply. That ship sailed. Sure, we could set up tariffs, manufacture all of our steel, cars, industrial items, electronics, etc, and pay 50% more. We'd also spend 50% more at least on products so nothing would change there. We'd also be subject to retaliatory tarriffs, so all of those products we are producing domestically could only be sold here. In 20 years you'd be looking at a late 70s/early 80s Soviet economy where quality isn't great, wages are fine, and no one can afford foreign products. We all know how that one turned out.

Originally Posted by indy_317

That era is over, and now we are seeing government, which produces nothing, starting to pay similar wages. I know an IMPD officer, with over-time, who cleared $90K in one year. That is one metro officer out of around 1,500.

First, I completely agree that in many cases there is government waste. Picking on a patrol officer is just nuts though. If someone wants to train and put themselves in the middle of domestic disputes, crimes, high speed pursuits, etc in the interest of public safety, then IMO, they earn every penny of it. Officers who can earn 90K w/ overtime aren't meter maids.

For the rest, I've gotta jump on my soap box....government produces nothing? Really? The government's role is to provide goods and services that private industry can not directly monetize that still have value for the general well being of both citizens and private industry in this country. Example: AUL can't go out and start their own police detail in your neighborhood. They could certainly try, and maybe in the absence of IMPD, you and a couple of neighbors would buy in. And the rest of your neighbors wouldn't...they'd just piggyback off the minimal coverage that you pay for...for nothing. Roads, utilities, and other infrastructure, public education, fire and police safety, consumer product safety, economic planning to promote, retain, and attract business, and so on. These things have no value? Without those things, business investment is much, much tougher to achieve.

The problem I see with this country today is that we have become a whiny, self-entitled bunch who wants really cush wages, amenities, and quality of life at no cost. Our non-defense spending at all levels of government in this country is roughly 32 cents on the dollar of GDP. If you toss out micronation finance hubs and tax refuges (Luxembourg, Singapore, Hong Kong) and if you set aside oil rich gulf states that essentially import an entire underclass of modern day slaves from India to do their grunt work for a few bucks a week, the USA and S. Korea are the leanest governments among top tier economies in the world. If you tossed defense back in the mix and the US could actually charge other countries for the defense the USA subsidizes for them (in terms of technical development and troop deployment) in Europe, parts of the Middle East, Japan, and Korea, the fed/state/municipal govt in the USA is thinner than anywhere else. Exorbitant spending isn't really the issue. If someone wants less government while magically getting good services and wages, find this utopia for me. Outside of those oil states and micronations, it doesn't exist. Mexico and Argentina are the "best" models and its pretty obvious that services and wages in both don't stack up to here.

Back to Indy govt: for some reason, this erroneous notion exists that those getting 6 figure checks from the city who are head of planning, chief of staff, head of public safety, etc have 9-5 jobs where they punch out and have no work worries/tasks until 9am the next morning. They don't. They work nights and weekends. They work pressers and public hearings. They meet with private business leaders at private business' convenience. They aren't 40hour/week or even 50 hour/week jobs. Those jobs are 24-7. They are on their crackberries at 10pm on a Saturday. And those people generally leave within a few years, where they work 10% more at a law firm making 50% to 100% more money. They have a lot of responsibility and most of us who have lived in other urban areas will tell you they run the city much better than your typical large US city. Not to say that there isn't waste, but it's not what many think it is.

One more comparison, and then I'll step off the soap box. Two employees, both making $18-$20/hr w/ benefits. One works for an automotive company in a tool shed. His only discernible skill is the ability to use a bar code scanner to check in/out tools. 8 hour days and he spends maybe 1 minute in 5 actually doing work. Rest of the time spent on crossword puzzles, talking Colts, or looking at dirty magazines. The other drives a 40,000 lb bus at night. He/she is responsible for making sure someone gets home in time to see their kids. While they are doing their job, they have to deal with nut jobs, drug addicts, criminals likely carrying guns, and the perv in the back leaving bodily fluids on a seat. Every minute of work is work. IMO, one of these people is earning his/her paycheck while the other one isn't.

[Marc Allen 242]

Originally Posted by Chicago76

No, the problem is that those UAW workers, with all due respect, were never worth $100K to begin ....

That's it...if they were that good they wouldn't have driven their companies into the ground.

[tollfree]

Originally Posted by indy_317

I don't understand all the outrage and shock at this sort of thing? The larger the urban municipality, the more deals like this are going on. Many folks here in the Indy forum seem to be pro-urban, so they don't criticize tax abatments for billionaires, tax money giveaways for billionaires or millionaires. Lucas Oil, Banker's Life, Broad Ripple parking garage, City Way....the list goes on and on. This is life under big government. The bigger the urban area the bigger the municipality, the more of this stuff goes on. Look at Chicago and all the stuff happening there. Eventually this kind of stuff will do in an elected official and they won't get voted back-in. However, I see Ballard as being on his last term, I don't see him running for re-election. So he is taking care of folks in hopes they will in turn take care of his kids when they are done with college (one might already be done) and need a future job either with city-county government, or maybe at the state level. If one doesn't like it, move to a less populated suburban or rural area. The same stuff goes on, but it is at a much lower rate, and lower taxes reflect that.

I do understand the outrage...Indy has a small-town mentality. Everyone wants to play mayor, and has the right idea of what the city needs to do.

Sure, people in every city complain, want things done differently, have ideas of what's better...but it's "mid-sized" cities that are still like more like small-towns (pure fascination with local politics) in this aspect than they'd ever admit. With Narnian cities, you can only expect this.

[Toxic Toast]

Originally Posted by RonnieJonez

I do understand the outrage...Indy has a small-town mentality. Everyone wants to play mayor, and has the right idea of what the city needs to do.

Sure, people in every city complain, want things done differently, have ideas of what's better...but it's "mid-sized" cities that are still like more like small-towns (pure fascination with local politics) in this aspect than they'd ever admit. With Narnian cities, you can only expect this.

So, what is the difference between Indy's talk of this and say, threads in Chicago about the return and subsequent mayorship of Rahm Emanuel?

I would argue, that the difference is one is a city you like, and the other is a city that you enjoy taking pot shots at whenever the opportunity arrises. So, ergo, the only difference is Ronnie and the desperate 6+ year crusade to coin the term narnian.

Is the mayoral race already over?
Rahm Emanuel ineligibility to run as Mayor of Chicago
Chicago Mayoral Elections 2011

Funny how local politics finds its way into the minds of people who live in Chicago.

[Knox Harrington]

Originally Posted by Marc Allen 242

That's it...if they were that good they wouldn't have driven their companies into the ground.

You know it takes two parties to sign a contract, right?

It's amazing to me that the auto industry leadership is not called out for agreeing to deals that were bad for the company. Everyone wants to blame the unions. Well of course the unions want to get the most they can. If management does not agree to their demands, however, there is no contract.

Oh, and these were also the executive brains who decided Detroit should produce more and more gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs while the Japanese were churning out the Civic, the Prius, the Accord, the Camry, etc. You know, the cars that pissed all over the grave of the American auto industry.

Are the unions and their "uneducated" members to blame for that lack or foresight? Nope, those with the big degrees at the very top are the ones to blame for that. What really drove the industry to the brink? Was it the overpaid union employees, or the lack of ingenuity? Seriously, how many times can we see the same Taurus dragged out?

Why did it take several years (an eternity in the industry these days) for Ford to produce a hybrid that could compete with the Prius?

Union members?

Hardly.

[Broadrippleguy]

Originally Posted by Toxic Toast

So, what is the difference between Indy's talk of this and say, threads in Chicago about the return and subsequent mayorship of Rahm Emanuel?

I would argue, that the difference is one is a city you like, and the other is a city that you enjoy taking pot shots at whenever the opportunity arrises. So, ergo, the only difference is Ronnie and the desperate 6+ year crusade to coin the term narnian.

Is the mayoral race already over?
Rahm Emanuel ineligibility to run as Mayor of Chicago
Chicago Mayoral Elections 2011

Funny how local politics finds its way into the minds of people who live in Chicago.

+1 rep and cookies for your Toxic Toast.
keep ronnie away please

[Toxic Toast]

Originally Posted by Broadrippleguy

+1 rep and cookies for your Toxic Toast.
keep ronnie away please

My objective is not now, nor has it ever been, to "keep ronnie away."

Sure, he doesn't live in Indianapolis and, true, he rarely offers anything of value to the forum. Still, he is allowed to show up and say whatever he wants, as silly and borderline fraudulent as it may be. Sound familiar to anyone here?