Roundabout interchanges for SR 37 in Fishers/Noblesville

[Coogles]

Originally Posted by ischyros

I think I kind of am then because I had Indianapolis Water until it was sold to Citizens, though water was the only utility I had. Otherwise we have Duke and Hamilton Southeastern Utilities (the latter of which has yet to get in the 20th century, let alone 21st century).

Your rates might have increased, but you're still paying for the service, not for the equity that Indianapolis had in the water company. Either way it was just a band-aid. Indianapolis can't sell the water company every time it needs infrastructure improvements; you only get to do that once.

If local residents and businesses had to cover the costs of almost any infrastructure project, I don't think anything would ever get approved. I do completely agree, as I said before, that the cost seems bizarrely high, but when has INDOT ever done anything for cheap?

Bolded isn't true at all. There are tons of examples of areas/developments that are self-sustaining in terms of the property taxes they pay in return for the local services they receive and infrastructure they use. With rare expection those just happen to be modeled in the pre-WWII grid pattern and in rural forms of land use, rather than the half-city half-rural thing this country seems to be obsessed with.

[wh15395]

Originally Posted by ischyros

I think I kind of am then because I had Indianapolis Water until it was sold to Citizens, though water was the only utility I had. Otherwise we have Duke and Hamilton Southeastern Utilities (the latter of which has yet to get in the 20th century, let alone 21st century).

I guess you can claim that you might have been paying for Indianapolis' streets, but let's not forget that Indianapolis is the only reason that your suburb exists.

[msamhunter]

Originally Posted by Coogles

Your rates might have increased, but you're still paying for the service, not for the equity that Indianapolis had in the water company. Either way it was just a band-aid. Indianapolis can't sell the water company every time it needs infrastructure improvements; you only get to do that once.



Bolded isn't true at all. There are tons of examples of areas/developments that are self-sustaining in terms of the property taxes they pay in return for the local services they receive and infrastructure they use. With rare expection those just happen to be modeled in the pre-WWII grid pattern and in rural forms of land use, rather than the half-city half-rural thing this country seems to be obsessed with.

Wharre are those areas? Infrastructure comed from all taxoayers in its taxing district. So all indy tax payers pay for infrastructure on all sides of town.

[Coogles]

Originally Posted by msamhunter

Wharre are those areas? Infrastructure comed from all taxoayers in its taxing district. So all indy tax payers pay for infrastructure on all sides of town.

The city has to budget that way, absolutely, but the Indianapolis didn’t go from being a 1 mile by 1 mile planned city to a massive 372 square mile metropolis with the flick of a switch. Each new housing, industrial, or commercial development brings with it a specific demand on infrastructure and city services.

Take, for example, a small 2 lane country road surrounded by private farms. There’s not much infrastructure there; the road is little if any more than a gravel road - no curbs or sidewalks, no street lighting, no water or sewer since those farms would be on well and septic systems. Before the Rural Electrification Act those farms would have had their own generators and windmills for their electricity too. Police and fire response will be slow because they’re 5 miles from the edge of town. There’s hardly any real infrastructure requirement, and what is there is completely sustained by the taxes those farms pay.

One farmer sells off his property and a new housing development goes in. The developer up front pays for the roads, the curbs, the sidewalks, the lighting, in some cases even running the water and sewer out to these new 3/4 acre lots and hands it over to the city once construction is complete. The housing goes in over the course of a few years and the city gets all this new property tax revenue and things are great. What you don’t see are the new liabilities on the city’s balance sheet for maintaining this shiny new infrastructure. In case after case, many of these styles of developments produce 10, 20, maybe 30 cents of revenue for every dollar of infrastructure liability that they create. There’s a great boon of free incremental tax revenue up front until those roads start needing repair.

Not only is the housing development on its own not self-sustaining, but now it requires wider main access roads, commercial space that poses the same financial difficulty in terms of a lack of return on investment, and the devaluing of the productive places we’ve already built.

The ball has continued to roll for years after this pattern of development stopped being effective through using new growth to pay for old growth (the pure definition of a ponzi scheme) debt, and government transfer payments. Projects like this only make things worse. The Federal Highway Trust Fund is already broke. The gas tax revenues states and the federal government receive don’t come anywhere near the cost of maintaining our current highway system, let alone extending I-69 to Evansville or building a commerce connector or submarining a county road at a cost of $348 million so people don’t have to wait at traffic lights. In 2008 the federal government approved an $8 billion transfer of general funds into the Federal Highway Trust Fund. $7 billion more in 2009. $19.5 billion in 2010. There’s no money.

There’s tons more stuff about all of this on http://www.strongtowns.org . Anyone with a single fiscally conservative bone in his or her body should check it out.

A one stop introduction to their message is here: http://www.strongtowns.org/storage/r...%20Book-LO.pdf

[grmasterb]

Speaking as another resident who lives close to this highway, while it would be nice, the price tag seems awfully high for the benefit. As others have noted, this is largely a commuter road, not a major inter-city thoroughfare. I agree the larger traffic issue is the side streets that connect to 37. Those have gotten better as improvements have been made to those intersections. I think there's got to be a cheaper way to improve traffic flow.

My concern with 37 is that it is a major barrier for the walk/bike paths that exist on both sides of the highway.

[ischyros]

The push to get this through seems to be getting stronger. At least the cost has come down from $348 million to $243 million. It needs to be done but I do fear the years of construction it will require.

Keystone Parkway-style overhaul discussed for key Hamilton County corridor | 2014-05-03 | Indianapolis Business Journal | IBJ.com

County continues to build case for State Road 37 overhaul | 2014-06-05 | Indianapolis Business Journal | IBJ.com

[IndyGoat]

I have lived in the Indy area for 40+ years, have been all over the northside and have seen both Carmel and Fishers explode in growth. The Keystone Project in Carmel was outstanding, completed in a fairly short time and has done wonders to improve N-S and E-W traffic flow. It also took a minimal footprint to install. Doing this to US31 is only going to continue to reduce congestion.

Living in Fishers, I can't wait for this to be done. Negatives, none. Pricetag, sure large, but take into account the need to repave in the future, time savings of the taxpayers, who will be funding this, fuel savings, ease of travel.

I hear complaints about roundabouts all the time, mostly from people who don't use them. They are awesome. Much better traffic flow, fewer stops and accidents.

To those that complain about the growth, redevelop, their own fault for living so far out. Enough. Free country, free market. Fact is the Indy Metro area has grown in the last 30 years, can't go back in time so pick the best fix.

This will also do much to relieve future congestion along other corridors including Allisonville, Olio, Promise, Cumberland. And thus maintenance.

The time frame appears to be that of a reporter, or a sorry estimate, Keystone took significantly less time.

[Born 2 Roll]

They could try using private investment backed with distance-based user fees (cash-back electronic tolls) to fund the project.

Narrowly-targeted Value Capture taxes (property and sales tax revenues collected from commercial property along the length of the project) could be used to fill-in any gaps in funding that may remain if private investment and user fees don't fund the entire cost of the project.

[ischyros]

Originally Posted by IndyGoat

I have lived in the Indy area for 40+ years, have been all over the northside and have seen both Carmel and Fishers explode in growth. The Keystone Project in Carmel was outstanding, completed in a fairly short time and has done wonders to improve N-S and E-W traffic flow. It also took a minimal footprint to install. Doing this to US31 is only going to continue to reduce congestion.

Living in Fishers, I can't wait for this to be done. Negatives, none. Pricetag, sure large, but take into account the need to repave in the future, time savings of the taxpayers, who will be funding this, fuel savings, ease of travel.

I hear complaints about roundabouts all the time, mostly from people who don't use them. They are awesome. Much better traffic flow, fewer stops and accidents.

To those that complain about the growth, redevelop, their own fault for living so far out. Enough. Free country, free market. Fact is the Indy Metro area has grown in the last 30 years, can't go back in time so pick the best fix.

This will also do much to relieve future congestion along other corridors including Allisonville, Olio, Promise, Cumberland. And thus maintenance.

The time frame appears to be that of a reporter, or a sorry estimate, Keystone took significantly less time.

I do see it as a possible way to prevent widening Allisonville. Though it hasn't been discussed at all, Allisonville can get very congested. Even with a light rail line, which would also be very nice, this is needed because just crossing 37 on a cross street can take a while. 126th St is probably the worst. Why they didn't redo that intersection when they widened 126th St is beyond me but it is horrible.