Builders in the Indy Area and building new (Fishers, Franklin: sales, real estate)

[Stubbzilla]

Let's examine the builders in the Indy area, and advice on buying a new home.

It seems that builder quality varies with time.

For example:
Trinity was very high quality until Crossman bought them out and basically started building crummy Crossman quality houses under the formerly-excellent Trinity name. Crossman had ruined their name through poor quality, so they bought someone else's good name.

Beazer is a decent national builder (and national builders are notoriously bad). Still, depending on the area and the person you're working with Beazer can be great for what it is. They put a lot of nicer trim into the houses, and nicer exteriors (for the price level, people). I would be extremely careful building with them, though. Most of their development around me have been sitting with almost no building activity for years.

Davis was good when we bought in 2002, at least for us and most of the people in our subdivision. But, two years later, I started to hear that they were not so good and had really started cutting quality. Obviously they ran the company into the ground.

Arbor homes was terrible - just terrible - when we researched them in 2002. Now they seem like they have improved their quality a lot.

Pulte does not put the quality in for the price. They slap on some nicer options and nicer trim and charge a LOT more. For a little more you can buy Drees and have a much nicer home. Pulte neighborhoods seem to keep their value better because they have a little bit of snob factor. Good marketing.

Drees is nice, a non-national builder, and seems to build nice neighborhoods. They have bizarre policies concerning what lots they will build on, though, which resulted in the development near me sitting with almost no activity for two years because no one wanted the seven lots that they "had" to sell before opening up all the desireable lots. They are terrible lots and they are finally building spec homes on them and hopefully going to finally open up the rest of the development.

Ryland is similar to Pulte except I do not think it has the cache.

Estridge charges even more than Pulte but does not deliver anything extra.

CP Morgan maybe used to be ok, but now they don't even use plywood for the siding - they use a plastic/foam type of stuff. Really, really bad. The way they shot themselves in the foot was because they decided to do the 2-1 buydown mortgages, or whatever they're called. That means your mortgage payment is much cheaper the first year, then a little more the second, then a LOT the third. People qualify under the first year payment and do not understand that their payment will go up. Yes, they are that dumb. When the mortgage goes up they can't pay and half the neighborhood goes into foreclosure, which ruins the whole neighborhood. Rule: NEVER buy in a neighborhood that offers one of those low-payment builder-subsidized mortgages.

Westport, for some reason, gave me a bad feeling when we looked in 2002, like I had some reason to be suspicious. I don't know what it was, maybe they just pushed too hard. Maybe someone else knows. They are building a new neighborhood that seems nice, though.

Hansen and Horn houses seem nice, but pricier to me, and I'm not sure they'll hold their value enough. It is so easy to slap nicer molding and trim on a house and make it seem like it's worth more. Their locations don't seem that great to me, either.

Fox and Jacobs is the "budget" side of Centex, or at least was, and after having toured through some slightly-used houses of theirs, I would avoid like the plague. I couldn't believe the poor quality of the framing that was done in one basement I saw. I thought for sure the homeowner did it and screwed it up, but it was confirmed that the builder actually did it.

Custom builders are no safe bet. They can run out of cash, they can *********, etc., just like a bigger company. It may be easier for them to close up shop and open under a new name. They are building custom houses in a development near me, and in the Bridgewater in Westfield, and I toured through and examined the build quality of just what I could see. It was almost always mediocre to sub-par. I know build quality, and there was no pride of workmanship in any of the houses I saw. They are obviously hiring the cheapest labor available.

So, in sum, if buying a house that is newer but not new, I would just look at the neighborhood and get a good home inspection, and not worry about the builder unless it was CP Morgan, because of the hidden foam walls within the last few years.

If buying new, don't rely on older reputations. Be sure who is actually running the company at the moment.

Be extremely careful about the location you are buying in. Check what is going to go in next door to you. I would not buy next to an open field, I would not buy (in the current market) in a subdivision that was largely empty. Buy near a new McDonald's, because McDonald's always puts in new restaurants just ahead of where the sprawl is headed...and sprawl means increased home values. (Or, if you want to be isolated in the country, don't do that).

Be extremely careful about the exact lot you buy. If I ever did build again I would get a maximum driveway slope in the contract, and pay an architect to look the final plans over before, and make his approval a contingency. Some people end up with these awful slopes that are really dangerous in the snow. Or the backyard ends being all sloped and is basically useless for any activity, and difficult to mow. For these reasons I probably would not build again, and would buy a house that was just a few years old.

Realize that the different "elevation" (facades) of the house designs may change the inside of the house. I didn't realize that picking a different facade (and paying a little extra) would have added several feet to one room, which would have been really nice.

I would not live in an older home. The floorplans are bad, the insulation is bad, and everything is old unless you spend a ton of money redoing everything. They have tiny closets, no nice bathtubs, and no storage. They are creaky and they often smell funny because of mold. All houses eventually have mold. The older homes don't go up in value any more than the newer homes, because most people feel like me and don't want to live in an older home for the above reasons. I have heard numerous real estate agents and acquaintances complain that they cannot sell their older home because people only want new homes with big bathrooms, etc. To sell their house they have to put those things in, which is very expensive. People say houses after 1965 will last 30 years. So, in 1995 we should have seen a bunch of houses start to fall apart. Didn't happen. You'll need to repair any house you buy, eventually. They all slowly decay. Regular maintenance is the key.

Feel free to add, agree or disagree.

[MikiJayne]

It seems like you've done a lot of research. Heavy consideration is put into what the family needs and wants and how they live. I like certain things that some higher end builders do, but hate other things, as it is not how my family lives. Some things that lower-priced companies like CPMorgan are doing are attractive to me, because I can see how it would fit how we live, of course there are other considerations with them, things I do not want.

You didn't mention Paul Shoopman homes, which used to be Dura, what do you think of them? I've worked with them and I was oretty impressed with their customer service, although of course, others haven't been. It is all a matter of personal style and taste.

[BCLead]

I sold for several builders back in the early 90's and we have built 3 homes in the last 20 years. I agree with almost everything you posted.
20 years ago, CP Morgan was an Estridge type builder. Very nice homes. The large homes in Delaware Estates on 106th in Fishers is an example of their homes at that time.
Our first home was built by Melody Homes in 1988. It was built on a treated wood foundation. What a nightmare. What can I say? We were young and dumb. Thank God they are gone now.
Our second home was built by Ivy Homes in 1991. Not bad quality, but also later went out of business.
After 7 years in an existing home, we built a Ryland in 2001. It has been an excellent home. The quality has really impressed us.
I worked for Davis for a time back in the 90's at that time they were excellent quality. Unfortunately, that didn't last. I spoke to one of the salespeople I knew a couple of years ago, and she told me they weren't the Davis Homes I remembered.
We really like Estridge and think the build a great house, but I think you also pay a premium for the name.
We recently looked at a Westport out by Geist. We really liked one of the floorplans, but like you, there was something I didn't like. I just couldn't put my finger on it.
I wouldn't touch an Arbor or a CP Morgan. They try to attract first time home buyers, but there are better choices for a first home. Maybe Westport or Beazer.
We came very close to buying a Pulte a couple of years ago, but they were very restrictive on options. If I'm paying $250,000 for a house, we want what we want. They had probably 10 cabinet samples, but only three were available to us. We couldn't upgrade to the sample we liked, so we walked.
If and when we decide to build again, It will probably be Drees. A little pricey, but resonable for what you get.

[Zoo Animals On Wheels]

I was with you right up until the stuff about "older" homes.

We own, by your definition, an older home (30 years old this year), and it is in excellent structural shape. We toured a number of newer homes before we purchased this one, and believe me, it's built much better and more solidly than the newer homes that we toured (the most expensive newer home we toured was listed at $300K; I'm sure there would be custom-built homes over this price range that would be much better-built).

Any house built after 1965 has a life expectancy of 30 years? No way. Brick, stone, and thick cedar siding will last a lot longer than the plywood, foam, and vinyl siding of the homes built in the last 10 years.

All older houses have mold? Just bought ours last summer...clean bill of health.

The bathrooms ARE smaller. I'm not sure why anyone needs an enormous bathroom, except that people see them on HGTV and think they need them. How much time do we spend in the bathroom, anyway? I'm not doing aerobics in there, so the bathroom doesn't need to be the size of a gymnasium.

No walk-in closets, but our house has a lot of storage, between the good-sized closets in each bedroom, the double-sized coat closet in the entryway (even the newer houses we toured all had coat closets half the size of ours), the linen closet, the outsized two-car garage and the huge storage barn in back. Oh, and the attic. You can have ample storage space without having a walk-in closet complete with granite-topped "shoe island."

Small rooms? Our friends all live in newer homes, and they all comment on our 18x24 great room (they have separate living and family rooms...which is nice, except for the fact that each room is around 12x14, and thus a bit cramped when more than 4 people are trying to gather).

And our house wasn't custom-made; it's a fairly modest, typical home in a modest but nice established neighborhood. Oh, and another huge plus of buying an older home: a good-sized lot with 100'-wide lots and plenty of mature trees.

So while I think your assessment of newer builders is pretty accurate (and very useful), I beg to differ that older homes are all undesirable, cramped, and decrepit.

[Stubbzilla]

The old vs. new debate is a never ending cycle. Everyone has their personal preference for different reasons. There is a lot of marketing and disinformation out there that is beyond the scope of a forum posting, and that factors in heavily. The price range matters a lot. Older houses generally go up in quality as they cost more, at least in Indy. New homes do not always go up in quality as they cost more. Some of them go down. What the average homeowner can see to measure what they think is "quality" is easily faked with molding, paint, and granite countertops.

There are certain time periods that people should be especially careful with. Aluminum wiring, steel instead of copper plumbing, houses not wired for enough amperage, synthetic stucco, the cement board siding lawsuits, etc. Any post-1965 house may have one of these problems, and if it is a new house may have some unknown future issue that is similar. For example, the green foam walls currently being used by CP Morgan will probably be found to be a huge mistake. Cement board siding was was touted as such a great thing - so much better than vinyl and as good as brick - but it turns out it has bad mold and moisture issues. I feel sorry for the people who paid a premium for that and chose it over brick. Or the cheaper, much maligned vinyl.

More advice on buying a newer house:
Especially if you are from a part of the country that does not use brick (ie anywhere with earthquakes), you will be confused when people start telling you all about brick and how it's so great, etc. The most important thing to remember is that generally brick has been a status symbol for people. It does not last forever, so have it inspected and if it is crumbling realize that it will be very expensive to have it replaced. (People often use a cheap fix and just cover over it with vinyl. That's why you may see an older house covered in new vinyl.) If you buy in a newer subdivision, my advice is never buy in one that did not have a minimum required percentage of brick in the facade. The only newer subdivisions that don't require any brick (and you will know because you will see all-vinyl houses in the subdivision) are/were budget neighborhoods. Take a drive through the budget neighborhoods and you will see that almost universally the people do not take care of their landscaping. There is a lot of predjudice about "vinyl villages." The alternative is cement siding, and that has a lot of problems. The trend is away from brick and siding and onto stone and a stucco type of stuff that is considered safe during winters here. Be extremely careful with the stucco stuff because I do not think it has been thoroughly tested through our weather. You don't want to get stuck with the equivalent of synthetic stucco. The stone instead of brick may be either a fad or a trend, and only time will tell which. A lot of people are moving to Indy from out of state, and I think that will make houses trend away from brick as time progresses.

I don't know much of anything about Paul Shoopman homes. I don't think they're building in my area. We looked at Dura in 2002 and I wasn't even sure if they were still around. In 2002, we just thought the Dura homes were...really ugly. I think they seemed ok for the lower end market in terms of quality.

[iupui1299]

I am building with Beazer right now. I have had a good experience so far. We are having our pre-drywall meeting on Monday and the build quality seems to be pretty goos so far. They have fixed every little thing I have noticed.....sometimes even before I have mentioned it to them. They have houses going up left and right in the neighborhood we are building in.

[Stubbzilla]

That's great! I'm glad you're having a good experience. My brother built with Beazer and it was overall very good - but he had a very good construction supervisor - who later got fired because he kept fixing stuff and Beazer wanted him to save money and not fix the stuff...

Do you mind saying what side of town you're on?

I think the Beazer areas near me are not moving because in the one case, the area is not great, and in the other case, the house takes up the entire yard and they are like "patio homes" but priced more than a new home with a yard just across the street.

[iupui1299]

Originally Posted by Stubbzilla

That's great! I'm glad you're having a good experience. My brother built with Beazer and it was overall very good - but he had a very good construction supervisor - who later got fired because he kept fixing stuff and Beazer wanted him to save money and not fix the stuff...

Do you mind saying what side of town you're on?

I think the Beazer areas near me are not moving because in the one case, the area is not great, and in the other case, the house takes up the entire yard and they are like "patio homes" but priced more than a new home with a yard just across the street.

We are building in Franklin Township. It is an existing neighborhood being co-built by beazer & arbor. There are sold signs and homes being built all over. It's a nice area and I think that is the biggest reason.

We go to the house everyday and try to keep an eye on everything. So far, they have done a good job and fixed everything that was questionable. We are just now at the pre-drywall inspection. Hopefully, the rest of the build process goes well.

[Stubbzilla]

I don't know much about that area, but I hope it all goes great for you!

Before they put the drywall in, you can probably put up some extra insulation on your interior walls. We did, and it cut the sound down a LOT. Our house is very quiet.

[Happy Home]

Beazer isn't bad but I agree that a good sales person and great construction supervisor make all the difference in the world. We have friends that are building with Westport on the westside (Avon) and have had a great experience. They have come a long way since 2002. They didn't have to upgrade much at all and they let them make custom changes that no one else would. I'd put them up there as one of the better builders in the city. We've been through the home several times and it looks great.