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Old 01-08-2016, 02:27 PM
 
28,607 posts, read 40,583,741 times
Reputation: 37262

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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
That's not what Tek_Freek is claiming. He is claiming that you can download it without penalty just because it is posted on the internet. That is simply not the case. There is content that is in violation of the law and can result in penalty.
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I am not saying I can download it without penalty. I am saying that the way the Internet and browsers work is that items are cached when you browse a site.

It's automatic. I haven't intentionally downloaded anything. It's a function of the browser.

If the poster doesn't understand it is automatically done then it's their responsibility to learn how it works. It's not my responsibility to remove them from cache simply because they are ignorant.

If the law is written so that I can be sued because my browser downloaded an image while browsing it simply indicates the ignorance of lawmakers. That is no surprise to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.
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Old 01-11-2016, 01:33 PM
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
5,894 posts, read 4,414,648 times
Reputation: 3934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek_Freek View Post
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I am not saying I can download it without penalty. I am saying that the way the Internet and browsers work is that items are cached when you browse a site.

It's automatic. I haven't intentionally downloaded anything. It's a function of the browser.

If the poster doesn't understand it is automatically done then it's their responsibility to learn how it works. It's not my responsibility to remove them from cache simply because they are ignorant.

If the law is written so that I can be sued because my browser downloaded an image while browsing it simply indicates the ignorance of lawmakers. That is no surprise to anyone with a modicum of intelligence.
In the situation where one is being tried for possession of child pornography, it might be in the best interest of the accused to not delete cache and plead ignorance in this case. Where I agree with you is that one cannot automatically be held liable based on copies of said files being present in cache. I read up on various court cases regarding this, and one ruling against the defendant actually made the point that since the defendant cleared the cache, then the defendant possessed said material. The reasoning was that you cannot delete or get rid of something you don't first possess. So in this case, files in cache, alone, could be evidence enough to convict.

On the other hand, if said defendant looked at said pornographic material without the knowledge that a copy gets downloaded into cache, the defendant could claim ignorance of how the technology works, and could be acquitted of charges. However, it can get much granular than that. Such as the idea that if the defendant enlarged thumbnails, then according to the court, in order to manipulate said material, you would need to be in possession of said material.

So, it's really not clear cut as you're automatically held liable for files in cache, but there's always a possibility you can be. In the case of simply having "possession" of copyrighted material in the cache, well now, that's just plain dumb to think one would be charged for copyright violations because the file needs to be copied in cache before the file can be played or viewed. I mean, the material is being "published" for viewing consumption. The viewer or listener is not claiming the files as their own work or manipulating the files for profit or redistribution. That argument, most all of us should agree on. Otherwise, all of us would be guilty.
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:20 PM
 
2,056 posts, read 2,546,727 times
Reputation: 3813
How about using a proxy server, Tor browser, block JavaScript, keep everything in a VM in a sandbox, and clear your cache and cookies after closing browser. Would this work? It would seem that all data is gone, and the use of the Tor browser/proxy means you never were anywhere to download anything?
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Old 01-13-2016, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Greensboro, NC
5,894 posts, read 4,414,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino View Post
How about using a proxy server, Tor browser, block JavaScript, keep everything in a VM in a sandbox, and clear your cache and cookies after closing browser. Would this work? It would seem that all data is gone, and the use of the Tor browser/proxy means you never were anywhere to download anything?
Well, the Tor browser does most all of that anyway, except for running in a sandbox. You could use the tor browser with the Tails OS on a flash drive, and you're pretty much anonymous. So as long as you don't do things like maximizing the window size of the Tor browser for instance. I know Snowden also used the Quebes OS as well, which is really locked down. I mean, to the point where every application is opened up in its own VM, and everything can be separated out. The core OS does not have any connection to the internet at all.

But, make one thing clear, using a proxy server doesn't hide your computer from downloading cache. It basically makes your computer appear, online, as if it's in a totally different location. But, it doesn't prevent your computer from downloading cache. Most any browser with an incognito mode will wipe cache once the browser has been closed.

In the legal sense, if you make an effort to clear the cache, then it is believed you cannot delete or get rid of something that you didn't possess in the first place. So, during the time that one is looking at something illegal online, they are, technically, still possessing said material, with the files being held in memory on the computer, regardless if it's in incognito mode or not. But the thing is, you have to be caught "in the act". That's the rub! (No pun intended, lol!) Once you close the browser, the cache is wiped. However, then the argument comes into play that regardless if you're using an incognito browser or not, there is still deletion of cache being done, whether manually or automatically. And that means that you had to possess the files at some point while viewing them. How much computer forensics would have to come into play to retrieve that data, I have no idea. I can't say for sure that you're 100% safe, even using the tor browser.
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Old 08-26-2016, 01:52 PM
 
89 posts, read 123,894 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by John7777 View Post
I think the major worry might be so-called "child porn." Even if you have no intention to look at the stuff, there it is. Maybe that's no problem?

Most of the people we read about who get arrested have thousands of child porn pictures and videos on their hard rives. For them, it's no accident.

But, in the eyes of the law, is it ok to view child porn all day + night on the internet AS LONG as you don't download it? Do people ever get prosecuted for just VISITING a website? Some mentioned it's ok to view illegal/immoral content 'by accident' and then clicking off it asap but how does the law deal with that?
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Old 08-26-2016, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Metro Washington DC
13,312 posts, read 20,359,563 times
Reputation: 7989
Quote:
Originally Posted by skinsguy37 View Post
In the situation where one is being tried for possession of child pornography, it might be in the best interest of the accused to not delete cache and plead ignorance in this case. Where I agree with you is that one cannot automatically be held liable based on copies of said files being present in cache. I read up on various court cases regarding this, and one ruling against the defendant actually made the point that since the defendant cleared the cache, then the defendant possessed said material. The reasoning was that you cannot delete or get rid of something you don't first possess. So in this case, files in cache, alone, could be evidence enough to convict.

On the other hand, if said defendant looked at said pornographic material without the knowledge that a copy gets downloaded into cache, the defendant could claim ignorance of how the technology works, and could be acquitted of charges. However, it can get much granular than that. Such as the idea that if the defendant enlarged thumbnails, then according to the court, in order to manipulate said material, you would need to be in possession of said material.

So, it's really not clear cut as you're automatically held liable for files in cache, but there's always a possibility you can be. In the case of simply having "possession" of copyrighted material in the cache, well now, that's just plain dumb to think one would be charged for copyright violations because the file needs to be copied in cache before the file can be played or viewed. I mean, the material is being "published" for viewing consumption. The viewer or listener is not claiming the files as their own work or manipulating the files for profit or redistribution. That argument, most all of us should agree on. Otherwise, all of us would be guilty.
When using a broswer in private mode, the cache is automatically cleared. In that case, how can automatically clearing it be evidence?
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Old 08-26-2016, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Wandering.
3,545 posts, read 5,677,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Live-life View Post
But, in the eyes of the law, is it ok to view child porn all day + night on the internet AS LONG as you don't download it? Do people ever get prosecuted for just VISITING a website? Some mentioned it's ok to view illegal/immoral content 'by accident' and then clicking off it asap but how does the law deal with that?
There's no such this as viewing without downloading, that's just not the way the internet works.

Even though you may not click on a link with the intention of downloading, everything you see in your browser has already been downloaded to your computer (into a temporary folder).

In the case of CP, I'm pretty sure that viewing in any way is illegal, and that a single accidental viewing is going to look a whole lot different to an investigator than continuously browsing will (both in terms of files in the local machine's cache, and in the IP history on the ISP).
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Old 08-29-2016, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Vallejo
14,476 posts, read 16,523,806 times
Reputation: 13043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Live-life View Post
But, in the eyes of the law, is it ok to view child porn all day + night on the internet AS LONG as you don't download it? Do people ever get prosecuted for just VISITING a website? Some mentioned it's ok to view illegal/immoral content 'by accident' and then clicking off it asap but how does the law deal with that?
No. Yes. In the US, they're wrong. Reception is illegal as well as possession. If you go about viewing and then meticulously scrubbing your computer, that's still reception which is illegal.
https://www.justice.gov/criminal-ceo...ld-pornography

Generally how people get caught with CP is based on viewing it. They either get caught when a CP server gets seized or when they go on some "honey pot" the FBI sets up. Often times they'll leave a CP source up when they seize it and log activity, trace IPs, and so forth. Really, no one gets caught because of possession. They get caught because of distribution and reception. That or they get caught tangentially. Eg, someone is stealing credit cards and their house gets searched and in the process they discover it or someone stumbles upon their stash and reports it.
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Old 12-20-2016, 02:21 PM
 
10,955 posts, read 15,239,043 times
Reputation: 5206
Here is an interesting story from today.
Attached Thumbnails
Legal to view ANYTHING on internet but not download it?-clipboard01fgtrg.jpg  
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Old 12-20-2016, 02:58 PM
 
Location: McAllen, TX
3,957 posts, read 2,608,667 times
Reputation: 4734
Often I hear of people (usually men) that get caught with child pornography. I was wondering if law enforcement is monitoring these sites to see who visits and what they do, why on earth wouldn't they shut the site down if in fact it is illegal (which it is). One word is all I can think of "Entrapment". I thought that in itself was illegal? It's a very grey area and somewhat like an undercover cop pretending to sell drugs on the street or a cop posing as a prostitute just to bust people.
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