Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics > Investing
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-13-2018, 10:26 AM
 
18,082 posts, read 15,670,593 times
Reputation: 26793

Advertisements

Posted 2/13/18

(Reuters) - A scheme to manipulate Wall Street's fear gauge, VIX, poses risk to the entire equity market and costs investors hundreds of millions of dollars a month, a law firm on behalf of an "anonymous whistleblower" told U.S. financial regulators and urged them to investigate before additional losses are suffered.

Edited to add: "The letter lacks credibility as it has inaccurate statements, misconceptions and factual errors, including a fundamental misunderstanding of the relationship between the VIX Index, VIX futures and volatility exchange-traded products, CBOE said in a statement to Bloomberg."



https://www.fidelity.com/news/articl...1FX0ES-OUSBS_1

Last edited by lottamoxie; 02-13-2018 at 10:44 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-13-2018, 10:35 AM
 
3,271 posts, read 2,189,526 times
Reputation: 2458
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2018, 11:32 AM
 
12,022 posts, read 11,572,686 times
Reputation: 11136
That article alleges the VIX spike was the result of manipulation which led to losses for the funds and investors who used the inverse VIX ETPs. It derives its conclusion from the same research cited in an earlier Zerohedge article.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-...nipulation-vix

It doesn't take into account the selling generated by funds employing risk-parity strategies which has also been covered in Zerohedge.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2018, 12:17 PM
 
3,271 posts, read 2,189,526 times
Reputation: 2458
It's too bad.

Last edited by Jobster; 02-13-2018 at 01:26 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2018, 12:48 PM
 
8,079 posts, read 10,079,579 times
Reputation: 22670
Lot of people got caught messing around in a product they didn't understand. When it feels too good to be true, it is. And in this industry, when there is someone like Goldman Sachs who figures out you are trapped, they will drive you into the ground to get every last $ of pain out of your hide. They care not at all that you are getting whipped like a rented mule. That's the way wall street works; Jim Cramer and his whining aside.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2018, 01:56 PM
 
12,022 posts, read 11,572,686 times
Reputation: 11136
WSJ: federal regulators investigation into spoofed SPX options orders on Feb 5 jamming the VIX higher

This was just before they shuttered the two funds on activity after the close on the termination rule.

The topic of phantom orders and quote stuffing have from time to time come up during the bubble.

A lot of the people messing around in the products got in on the basis that the markets were being rigged and the VIX being jammed lower to boost the equity markets; i.e., somebody was repeatedly selling the VIX on a predictable basis and traders were shorting the VIX as a source of liquidity to purchase the SP.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2018, 06:44 PM
 
18,082 posts, read 15,670,593 times
Reputation: 26793
The moral of the story: stick to basic tried and true products like mutual funds and regular ETFs unless you have a hankering for risk.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2018, 06:53 PM
 
Location: City of the Angels
2,222 posts, read 2,345,556 times
Reputation: 5422
Sure sounds like a Minsky Moment to me !
I'm thinking we'll be seeing more and more of these moments as creativity grows more rampant in ways of making money without investing becomes more prolific among the idle 1%ers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-13-2018, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
25,580 posts, read 56,482,264 times
Reputation: 23385
CBOE disclaimer notwithstanding, Bob Pisani today said he had talked to the whistleblower. Sounded from his comments, the rigging is as described upthread.

Quote:
The whistleblower contends that most of the farthest out-of-the-money options only trade on days where there is a settlement for VIX futures and options, and he specifically is asking to investigate why this happens.

Because those far out-of-the-money options have very high implied volatility, the presence of those options drives the price of the VIX up.

His contention is that some traders go long VIX futures and then put in bids and offers way out of the money and profit when the VIX goes up just before settlement.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/13/whis...-sell-off.html

Last edited by Ariadne22; 02-13-2018 at 09:40 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-14-2018, 08:45 AM
 
Location: Texas
5,872 posts, read 8,094,294 times
Reputation: 2971
It would take some investigation, but nothing that is outside of normal for the CBOE or anyone with a Bloomberg terminal to quickly (less than 72 hours) ascertain if there is spoofing. However, this to me sounds like someone who got caught holding contracts & couldn't unwind quickly or enough to protect his blotter. The submitting of orders to manipulate the bid/ask & mid points and then cancelling those orders is not hard to track, and there are specific teams at each exchange searching for just that.

Hopefully we'll see very very soon if there was in fact any substance to the allegation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Economics > Investing
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:46 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top