Des Moines vs. Omaha (Sioux City, Iowa City: home, calculation, stores)

[metroplex2003]

Originally Posted by DBQer

Wow! You know an awful lot about cities and airports!

Wrapping up my thoughts on DFW, Atlanta, Houston, and so on, I'd just say that its certain all will be benefitting in some way in the forseeable future. Growth is a certainty in all of those areas. However, I would not be surprised in the least if things start to slow down in a big way, say after 2020. Growth cannot continue without a breaking point. As I mentioned earlier, cities like Milwaukee, Detroit, and Cleveland were, at one time, growing as rapidly as DFW is now. Costs of doing business in the subelt will soon catch up to the rest of the nation, if not exceed it, and it may well balance back to the north or east. Housing, transportation, and the cost of living are rising so fast in some of these areas, it may not be long. Take California as an example of a state that has seen its once-swift growth slow considerably.

I guess I would sum up my comments by saying that the fact that we are even comparing Omaha and Des Moines has to be a compliment to Des Moines, given its smaller size. I frequently hear stereotypes about Iowa (farms, hicks, whatever), but if people only knew how far that was from the truth. Iowa is a mostly urban state, and the Des Moines metro has around 1/6 of the entire state's population (and climbing). Iowa's rural areas are de-populating, and so the trend goes on...

I agree that every place has its breaking point. St. Louis was the 4th largest city in the US at the turn of the 20th century. In its heyday, it was the big player, not Chicago. One thing I do think though is that growth will continue at a healthy pace in Texas b/c of the favorable business climate there. LA grew so large, I dont think Dallas or Houston will be LA in the sense that LA has the advantage of scenery and weather, but I do foresee continued migration of Californians to Texas as there are those seeking larger housing.
As for costs, I agree, it will be more expensive in the future, but one advantage of TExas is land...flat land equates to more inexpensive corporate hq operations. DFW alternates #1 and #2 every year for corporate hq relocations. Studies have shown continuously that building wide is more efficient and less per sq. ft than building upwards.

Now question is, will balance go back to the northern cities? Not sure. Reason why sunbelt has taken off is in my opinion a very simple invention that we as Americans take for granted all way too often: air conditioning. AC has indirectly fueled the growth of places like Phoenix, Las Vegas, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, and Florida cities. Now I'm just speculating here...b/c mainly I'm too lazy to look up the latest scientific data on this, but I do believe there is one confounding variable other than jobs and businesses moving down south due to lower costs of living, it's also weather. I think Americans in general do like warmer weather. Now there are those in my family who like the 4 seasons and prefer to stay in Iowa, Wisconsin, etc, but I do tend to believe there is a growing population that prefers warmer weather overall. The other things that hinder some cities up north is geographic limitations.
But at the end of the day, it's states ability to market itself and bring businesses back. Iowa has been relatively stagnant over the years. It still has roughly 2.9 million people. When I left Iowa, it had 2.9 million people. When I returned back to Iowa, it still had 2.9 million people When I left again, it still had 2.9 million people. Iowa needs to market itself and become more favorable of a place to do business in. Young people who get educated at the "U" end up going to larger population centers (aka Chicago) to make use of their degrees.
Examples of Iowa's losses include losing Gateway computers at the time to South Dakota, though it was only across the river in North Sioux City, SD, it was a big blow and blown opportunity for Iowa. Maytag has now been bought out. We lost IBP (the world's largest beef processor) corporate HQ first to South Dakota, and now to Tyson Chicken.

On the medical front, we've been unable to retain doctors in Iowa cities. Staff has been lost at the "U".

But like you said, things are a cycle...I just havent seen much with the exception of Des Moines area, from the rest of Iowa as for the most part, and this is a generalization, b/c I know you can find exceptions to the rule and so could I for Sioux City, but Sioux City, Davenport, Cedar Rapids, Waterloo, and Dubuque have all been relatively stagnant.

Iowa City has grown a bit with Coralville. But it's nothing in comparison to what Sioux Falls was able to accomplish over the last 2.5 decades. To me, Iowa has kind of represented what Illinois towns of similar size has done. It's stagnated. I hope the Midwest as a whole makes a comeback...afterall, I'm still a midwesterner at heart...though do not miss the icy cold winters. But it does sadden me what I've seen out of places like St. Louis (lived there too), or many of the Iowa towns, Illinois towns. Yes things are being improved from a quality of life standpoint...Vision Iowa did some good things for communities like Sioux City and Dubuque. But I think if the right people are in running the state, you can make Iowa even better...a state that can boom along with SD, or NV. You have to give people a reason to move there though. Yes Iowa has good schools...but good schools may not be enough to sell. We need better marketing.

[metroplex2003]

With regards to Detroit, it desparately needs to diversify its economy. Detroit rose and fell with the Big 3 : GM, FOrd, and Chrysler.
The problem with the northern cities are that they failed to adapt to our changing economy. THe US is more of a service sector economy now rather than an industrial manufacturing economy. Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, they all represent the old economies of the past. Unfortunately, many americans do not like to manufacture anymore on the whole.
That's why it's crucial for those type of cities to diversify. THe advantage of the newer cities is that they were able to see the mistakes of the past and build on them. Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix all have diversified economies that make those places less vulnerable to recessions.

[metroplex2003]

As for Des Moines, b/c I do apologize for getting off topic in the thread I started,

I do think it's appropriate to compare Des Moines to Omaha despite the much smaller size.

Firstly, I think it's the only fair comparison. Omaha is no KC.
And certainly Omaha should not be compared to Sioux City, or Sioux Falls...those cities are on the same level as Cedar Rapids, Dubuque, Fargo.

Omaha cant be compared to Minneapolis/St. Paul.

Omaha is too far away from Tulsa.

So the natural comparison is OMaha vs. Des Moines. And Des Moines always had a better skyline than Omaha so it made for fun comparisons despite the population difference. However, the US Census Bureau inflated Omaha figures by including all these places out west into the 2000 census. But Omaha proper is still bigger than Des Moines by a considerable amount, however, Des Moines has more suburbs that are nicer and quite large in population.

I would say their amenties are roughly similar. They have about one of each big city retail that are normally found in big cities. They're both minor league cities. They're both the main urban centers of their respective states.
I know OMaha people would love to compare themselves to a St. Louis or a Minneapolis/St. Paul, but you cant do it...I think Omaha is on the same tier as a Tulsa, OK or a Des Moines, IA, or a Buffalo, NY.

[DBQer]

I think you're absolutely right when you say it comes down to cities and states marketing themselves and creating aggressive business climates. Warm weather is a plus, but its not everything. Take Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Oklahoma... all "warm" states, but none have done much growing, or are known for successful economies! On the other hand, places like Washington (state) and Minnesota continue to grow and prosper, despite themselves!!

I think we can both agree that Des Moines is a very special place, and really makes Iowa proud. Its doing just fine.

[metroplex2003]

Originally Posted by DBQer

I think you're absolutely right when you say it comes down to cities and states marketing themselves and creating aggressive business climates. Warm weather is a plus, but its not everything. Take Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Oklahoma... all "warm" states, but none have done much growing, or are known for successful economies! On the other hand, places like Washington (state) and Minnesota continue to grow and prosper, despite themselves!!

I think we can both agree that Des Moines is a very special place, and really makes Iowa proud. Its doing just fine.

Yeah, I agree. THe deep south is not particularly growing with the exception of GA.
Minnesota is the one exception to what is otherwise a pretty stagnant Midwestern region. I agree with that. TX has made for a very aggressive business climate. Wash St. has advantages too, especially around the Van Couver, WA area just outside of Portland. No state income tax on one side, no sales tax on the Oregon side.
Other things that go into the success of a region is the amount of educated workforce that is able to supply higher paying jobs. THis creates a domino effect that overall enhances a region.

Iowa has tried to market itself with its "Field of Opportunities" campaign, but I still think Iowa has not been aggressive enough. When Iowa lost Gateway and IBP to SD, I think it symbolized our lack of aggressiveness at the time. Now many of our communities that are considered "urban" by Iowa standards relies on the health care economy to fuel the region. Yes we have our agriculture, but it would be nice to move beyond that. For example, SD (aka SIoux Falls) has done a great job at converting itself into a banking center for the region. I would like to see more diversification in Iowa cities.

We'll see, but as for right now, except for Des Moines MSA, and some modest growth in Coralville, Iowa cities have tended to lag behind the successful urban growth of other states. However, this seems to be a trend in the states similar to Iowa as you have mentioned: Alabama, MS, MO, and I add IL to that mix as well as WI, KS, OH, MI.

[Nicnatros]

When comparing cities, you have to add a personal weight to every difference. Is it going to change your satisfaction of living there if the skyline is better or worse than another medium sized cities? Is Cheesecake Factory your favorite restaurant and you go there twice a week, making this important? It seems many of the comparisons in the beginning of this thread were based on fairly trivial matters.

[metroplex2003]

Originally Posted by Nicnatros

When comparing cities, you have to add a personal weight to every difference. Is it going to change your satisfaction of living there if the skyline is better or worse than another medium sized cities? Is Cheesecake Factory your favorite restaurant and you go there twice a week, making this important? It seems many of the comparisons in the beginning of this thread were based on fairly trivial matters.

Well, I think airport access is fair game.

As well, as the venues of entertainment.
As well as retail/commercial selection.

Freeway system is also fair game.

Overall, I give the edge to Omaha (barely).

[jkay29]

I just wanted to mention that Des Moines does have a medical university. Here is the link: Des Moines University
Iowa Methodist is a teaching hospital but I am not sure where the students are from, there or U of I or both...

[metroplex2003]

Originally Posted by jkay29

I just wanted to mention that Des Moines does have a medical university. Here is the link: Des Moines University
Iowa Methodist is a teaching hospital but I am not sure where the students are from, there or U of I or both...

You're right. Des Moines has the only osteopathic med school in the state.

OMaha has 2 medical universities: Creighton and UNO.

It's too bad that the medical campus of the Univ. of Iowa didnt relocate to Des Moines like with some other cities in the US.

Examples: Univ. of Texas does not have their med campus in Austin.
Univ. of Nebraska does not have their med campus in Lincoln.
Univ. of SD splits up their campus such that the main hospitals are in Sioux Fallas, but the classrooms are in Vermillion.

[Chelito23]

Could someone please describe the differences in weather between Des Moines and Omaha? I know both are similar, but I assume Des Moines is colder and Omaha generally a few degrees warmer and drier. Am I correct, is there more to this?