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Old 06-11-2010, 03:30 PM
 
1,785 posts, read 3,020,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
i dont understand why people like you think that a group of muslims can just stop whats going on. its not like we control all muslims. or all muslims listen to other muslims. i can try just as hard as you would try and stop this and we would come to the same realization, people will be people no matter if you tell them what theyre doing is not part of islam they dont care because they believe it is. you can show them through hadiths and the quran that they shouldnt be doing what theyre doing but some people are just ignorant and dont want to listen. people will be people and you cant judge what some people do and blame it on the religion that they claim to follow. if its not part of islam then its not part of islam. that doesnt mean people wont be who they are. just like i can tell you that the quran was sent from Allah, i could spend all day, showing you proof, but you wouldnt change what you believe. same deal just on a smaller scale.
Sukrill, I wanna understand your religion and have respect for it, I really do. I lived next door to a mosque in the late 1990's and had an absolute respect for the men that appeared 5 times (?) daily to offer their prayers. That was pretty devout to me. I sympathized with taxi drivers during Ramandan and admired their willpower. BUT ....

To simply have you wash your hands of the most radical members of your religion and say "Well, what can we do about them" is a cop-out. These radicals are painting your religion in a very bad light and the more moderate among you - who I believe to be the vast majority of believers of your faith - needs to get a handle on it. It must come from within your own faith.
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Old 06-11-2010, 03:52 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cokatie View Post
Sukrill, I wanna understand your religion and have respect for it, I really do. I lived next door to a mosque in the late 1990's and had an absolute respect for the men that appeared 5 times (?) daily to offer their prayers. That was pretty devout to me. I sympathized with taxi drivers during Ramandan and admired their willpower. BUT ....

To simply have you wash your hands of the most radical members of your religion and say "Well, what can we do about them" is a cop-out. These radicals are painting your religion in a very bad light and the more moderate among you - who I believe to be the vast majority of believers of your faith - needs to get a handle on it. It must come from within your own faith.
Humdallah. i appreciate your generosity toward islam. i couldnt agree more. the men and women you see here in the states, most of them try and practice islam as best they can. nobodys perfect but i have to respectfully disagree with you on the subject of you believing that im copping out. i understand how you could misinterpret what i said but allow me to explain. the radical muslim overseas call american muslims infadels. which by definition in islam is not true. however that doesnt change the fact that the terrorist over there do not care if innocent muslims or non muslims are killed because if they happen to kill a muslim they just think that we too will die in the name of allah, dying as martyrs. theyre crazy over there. they wont listen to us but do not think that we are not trying. humdallah we have some brave brothers and sisters that have the money and the time to go over and try and stop what is being done. the most powerful nation on the face of the earth cannot even stop them, but ignorant people, not meaning, think that just because we both read the same books or pray 5 times a day then we can magically make them stop. if it were this easy it would've never happened. but theyre not muslims overseas. theyre terrorist. plain and simple if a christian tries to talk to a christian terrorist he has just a good a chance at talking him out of it as anyone else. but a terrorist is a terrorist. islam is islam. and terrorism is not what islam practices. my only point was that just because were muslims doesnt mean we have the power to stop them
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Why then are the bombers considered to be martyrs when they blow themselves up to kill others?...Their families actually build shrines for them.

A leading Islamist authority, Sheikh Yusuf Qaradawi, recently explained the distinction this way: attacks on enemies are not suicide operations, but ''heroic martyrdom operations'' in which the kamikazes act not ''out of hopelessness and despair, but are driven by an overwhelming desire to cast terror and fear into the hearts of the oppressors.''

In other words, Islamists find suicide for personal reasons abominable, suicide for jihad admirable.

Islamic Suicide Bombers - religious cults, sects and movements
i understand what your talking about but just because they find it admirable and build shrines for them does not make it part of islam.

number one, suicide is strictly forbidden
two, it is not permissable to idolize anything other than Allah (you cannot build a shrine)
three, to kill anyone when you had no right (ie not self defense of your own life)

they are obviously not following what islam teaches and i dont know where they get the idea from that its ok. i dont doubt you when you say theres shieks overseas telling them that what theyre doing is righteous, they gotta follow/hear it from somebody. but that doesnt mean its part of what islam teaches. its not what muslims practice. but still that doesnt mean that what theyre doing is right
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:35 PM
 
1,785 posts, read 3,020,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
Humdallah. i appreciate your generosity toward islam. i couldnt agree more. the men and women you see here in the states, most of them try and practice islam as best they can. nobodys perfect but i have to respectfully disagree with you on the subject of you believing that im copping out. i understand how you could misinterpret what i said but allow me to explain. the radical muslim overseas call american muslims infadels. which by definition in islam is not true. however that doesnt change the fact that the terrorist over there do not care if innocent muslims or non muslims are killed because if they happen to kill a muslim they just think that we too will die in the name of allah, dying as martyrs. theyre crazy over there. they wont listen to us but do not think that we are not trying. humdallah we have some brave brothers and sisters that have the money and the time to go over and try and stop what is being done. the most powerful nation on the face of the earth cannot even stop them, but ignorant people, not meaning, think that just because we both read the same books or pray 5 times a day then we can magically make them stop. if it were this easy it would've never happened. but theyre not muslims overseas. theyre terrorist. plain and simple if a christian tries to talk to a christian terrorist he has just a good a chance at talking him out of it as anyone else. but a terrorist is a terrorist. islam is islam. and terrorism is not what islam practices. my only point was that just because were muslims doesnt mean we have the power to stop them
I'm sorry Sukrill, but I need to disagree with you on this. I believe if more of your powerful Imans spoke out both in your mosques and in public calling for this radical element to stop, it would help both your image - and perhaps make a few of them come to their senses and stop thinking of all non-Muslims as something they need to kill.

As for thinking that these types of radical Muslims only exist overseas, I think we both know that is not the case. They are also here in the United States, attending local mosques, headed by local Imans.

No, I really think that the change MUST come from within. From both your lay members and from your Imans.
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Old 06-11-2010, 04:55 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cokatie View Post
I'm sorry Sukrill, but I need to disagree with you on this. I believe if more of your powerful Imans spoke out both in your mosques and in public calling for this radical element to stop, it would help both your image - and perhaps make a few of them come to their senses and stop thinking of all non-Muslims as something they need to kill.

As for thinking that these types of radical Muslims only exist overseas, I think we both know that is not the case. They are also here in the United States, attending local mosques, headed by local Imans.

No, I really think that the change MUST come from within. From both your lay members and from your Imans.
insha allah, i guess it can go either way. we are trying though. and i know that if i was a good respected imam i would stay in the states because id rather stay and tell people about allah and his messengers than risk my life overseas. i do see your point though and its a good one. unfortunately the terrorist over here in the states are not open to admitting it obviously. if they did wed have them in jail. i know if one of the brothers or sisters came up to me telling me some terrorist act id call the police. so how would we even begin to try and stop someone from terrorizing when we dont even know who they are. its not as easy as some people on this forum think it is
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Old 06-11-2010, 05:08 PM
 
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If you are truly asking my opinion, it would be as follows: The sort of radical tendencies we have seen in recent years by some members of your religion are not going to change - you are right. That is both the case here in the US and overseas. However, as I understand it, your mosques often have Islamic schools attached. It is THIS younger generation where the change must take place. It's like the old crumudgeons all of us know here - you know - about 70 or 80 years old, believes a woman's place is in the home, that the races should be kept seperate, that any other religion is not a good religion and should be bashed. You will NEVER change these people. It is too ingrained. Well, it is an unforunate fact that this is the same for your radical terrorists.

Hatred is learned in the home and at school. If respect for other religions was taught at your schools, and that any kind of terrorism is wrong and is murder, and that the words of Mohammed were being distorted by an evil few bringing fear into communities and hatred from other people, then it would slowly change.

This is where the Imans would have to step up to ensure that this was being taught. And this is where parents have to to step up to ensure that their children are being taught about the right side of Islam.

Is this not an option? Is it something that could be asked of your own personal Iman?
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Old 06-11-2010, 06:22 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
men and women are equal before god on the day of judgment. you cant just casually throw out claims like islam was invented by men for men or that women are sex slaves for eternity. you should research first. women and men can have whatever they want in paradise that is not of sin. so if a guy wants 10 wives in paradise, by the will of allah, he will have 10 wives, if a woman wants 10 husbands, by the will of allah, she will have ten husbands. i really dont understand why people like you dont comprehend things yourself instead of following these people that make false accusations. number one question that shuts down the "it was invented by men claim" is that there are women in islam too. wives, daughters, mothers, and they are far from sex slaves. you think a man would allow his daughter to join islam if he believed she would be a sex slave? think about it. women would not be in islam, women would not convert into islam if this claim were true. why would they want to be a sex slave? use the mind allah gave you and ask women why they joined islam. i gaurantee you not one will say "i joined it because i heard a women is a sex slave and ill spend eternity in heaven as a sex slave"... im still trying to comprehend how you would even begin to think that your post was a legitimate claim about islam....
Ok, I'll admit I don't know a lot of the details of the Islamic faith. Perhaps you'll answer a few of my questions here or repond to my comments.

These are the things I "know" about Islam. I put quotations around "know" since I'm willing to be enlightned about what I "know" by you or anyone so inclined to challenge any of my comments. As I've already stated, I don't know much about islam. The majority of what I know comes from what I learn right after a building or group of people have been blown to bits.

1) It doesn't seem to me that the overwhelming majority of Islamic societies give women anywhere near the rights that the men have. You know...an unaccompanied woman in public is punished. Some cannot even show their faces in public....needing rather to wear the burkka (sp)...while the men of course are free to walk around unencumbered by a facial mask. Seems to me I read somewhere about the women fighting for the right just to attend school....while I'm reasonably certain that none of the men had to fight for that privilage. How about keeping the women home and painting the windows black so they can't even peek out. Seems I've heard of that too. Or a woman who's killed/stoned for having sex outside of marriage while the male half is punished to a much lesser degree.

Honor killings....where a female shows to much skin (dresses inappropriately), has sex outside of marriage(even if raped), or refuses to marry the fellow her father say's she supposd to marry.....well, she sometimes killed by the...hold your breath here folks, her own father or another male member of the family that ostensibly is supposed to love his kids....guess not. Has anyone got an example of a son being killed for the familys honor ? I haven't heard of any...but I'm willing to be convinced if anyone has valid examples. Of course while giving me examples of males killed for the families honor might make things more equal in the muslim faith.....it would just be more equally depraved in my opinion.

Seems most terrorist muslims yell "alla akbar" (sp) which I believe means "god is great", right before blowing something up and killing innocent people. Kind of makes you wonder if you'd really want to spend much time with "allah" if he's amused by that type of thing. Of course if you throw in the 72 virgins in paradise....I guess that may change a young mans mind.

Seems to me that for a society (muslim) that is so strict with a woman showing a "little ankle" or heaven forbid her face in public, to be so fascinated by having 72 virgins to deflower in the hereafter is a rather telling thing. Most people of any set of rules (religious faith or just socitial morays) seem fascinated and in many cases preoccupied by that which is forbidden. That would seem to apply here. Even though other faiths all seem to have lots of sexual rules, most are nowhere near as strict as the muslim faith. Christians, while they have lots of sexual rules still allow the gals to wear skirts/dresses to church where, heaven forbid, they show not only some ankle....but sometimes even the lower knee.

Having 72 vigins at your disposal would seem to be a very effective way of getting a young man to blow himself (of course along with lots of evil civilians too of course) up....seems kind of a very convenient thing to tell a teenage boy, who's hormones are raging at the time, by the man behind the curtain who's pulling the strings. I have heard recently though, that in the name of treating the young gals more like the young muslim men, they powers that be have instructed some of the young women to have bombs surgically implanted in their breasts that will allow them to more effectively get through airport security and blow up jet airliners....or could even be useful in a crowded marketplace. So you see...all those muslim men terrorists leaders do, if you dig real deep, have a soft spot for the women gender. Hey...now there are two uses for them. They of course make babies, and now, we'e discovered they also have another use for their breasts. Feeding the youngins.....and blowing up infidels.

And what's with those muslims that homeland security catches from time to time that have lived in America for a number of years and enjoyed the fruits of a democratic society...you know, freedom, a western education and all that jazz....and then they leave town for a bit to "study" under muhammed alakazam (or whomever) in Afganistan or Somalia or wherever.....all so they can come back to America and blow some of us up who've treated them well while they were here.

Ya I know we've got a few local nutcases, born and raised in the good ol' USA who have blown a few things up too....but by golly, at least none of the prasied "allah" before pressing the button. I guess that's what makes me wonder about the muslim faith the most....praising god right before purposely murdering innocent civilians.....someone, anyone, please explain that to me. And the virgin thing too....while you're at it....explain that to me too. It just seems odd to be so restrictive of sexual activity in your worldy life only to be part of a mosh pit orgy in heaven. That allah sure had a split personality.

So...have at it. Seriously....I'd like someone who knows way more about the muslim faith that I do to explain, tell me I'm dead wrong, or even attempt to justify some of the things I've mentioned above

Last edited by jasper1372; 06-11-2010 at 06:47 PM..
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Old 06-11-2010, 09:23 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cokatie View Post
If you are truly asking my opinion, it would be as follows: The sort of radical tendencies we have seen in recent years by some members of your religion are not going to change - you are right. That is both the case here in the US and overseas. However, as I understand it, your mosques often have Islamic schools attached. It is THIS younger generation where the change must take place. It's like the old crumudgeons all of us know here - you know - about 70 or 80 years old, believes a woman's place is in the home, that the races should be kept seperate, that any other religion is not a good religion and should be bashed. You will NEVER change these people. It is too ingrained. Well, it is an unforunate fact that this is the same for your radical terrorists.

Hatred is learned in the home and at school. If respect for other religions was taught at your schools, and that any kind of terrorism is wrong and is murder, and that the words of Mohammed were being distorted by an evil few bringing fear into communities and hatred from other people, then it would slowly change.

This is where the Imans would have to step up to ensure that this was being taught. And this is where parents have to to step up to ensure that their children are being taught about the right side of Islam.

Is this not an option? Is it something that could be asked of your own personal Iman?
o but of course, i couldnt agree more. as far as i know though, no mosque that i know of are teaching anything other than the words of the prophet and that all of the above is clear. they talk about terrorism in the mosque and say how some muslims are giving us a bad image, you turn on the news and the media is portraying another muslim that got caught about o commit a terrorist act or one that is part of al queda. its a shame that this is the way the media portrays the common muslim because people out there that are not like you that dont know any muslims but the ones they see on tv think all muslims are that way. i know that each time something is said at the mosque, even if it has the slightest error as far as the words of the prophet, even though its rare, another brother goes up to the imam and corrects him. but yes, it is an option. its an excellent option. but unfortunately i dont think its the way the children are being taught by the imamas, i think its those kids that are not going to the schools and are being taught something different by their parents. but we dont know who those parents are because they are the ones who i would assume do not attend the juma, or the mosque. the imams do thier best teaching the kids th words of muhammad and all the muslim i know never say anything but what they know that is righteous. no one ever speaks highly of terrorism, every muslim i talked to ever has always been in agreement with me that they giv us a bad image and we wish we could do something but we aere your average people. we have jobs, families, a steady income. we live a normal life and a majority of us do not have the time or money to find out where these terrorsit are, because even though there are some here, they are i believe overseas mainly. but i could be mistaken. i dont know exactly who or where they are you know.
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Old 06-12-2010, 07:42 AM
 
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Paradise=الجنة

بسم الله الرحمان الرحيم
In the name of God the Merciful

God has said in the Quran:
“And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that they will have gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow....” (Quran 2:25)
God has also said:
“Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and for Paradise, whose width is as the width of the heavens and the earth, which has been prepared for those who believe in God and His messengers....” (Quran 57:21)
The Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, told us that the lowest in rank among the dwellers of Paradise will have ten times the like of this world,[1] and he or she will have whatever he or she desires and ten times like it.[2] Also, the Prophet Muhammad said: “A space in Paradise equivalent to the size of a foot would be better than the world and what is in it.”[3] He also said: “In Paradise there are things which no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no human mind has thought of.”[4] He also said: “The most miserable man in the world of those meant for Paradise will be dipped once in Paradise. Then he will be asked, ‘Son of Adam, did you ever face any misery? Did you ever experience any hardship?’ So he will say, ‘No, by God, O Lord! I never faced any misery, and I never experienced any hardship.’”[5]
If you enter Paradise, you will live a very happy life without sickness, pain, sadness, or death; God will be pleased with you; and you will live there forever. God has said in the Quran:
“But those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them to gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow, lasting in them forever....” (Quran 4:57
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
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Thumbs down A vicious Cycle of Hatred, taught and rewarded!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
i dont understand why people like you think that a group of muslims can just stop whats going on. its not like we control all muslims. or all muslims listen to other muslims.
I'll repeat the obvious, with some comments and highlights:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post


If you expect the global community of civilized man to respect Islam, you believers should really get your entire cultural house in order.

If all that [i.e.: our apparent misconceptions about Islam...] is false, I'd suggest you start actively policing the radicals and engaging in an honest PR campaign to correct our mis-understandings.

[I'll also highlight one of my key comments, because I don't see where you responded at all to it.

Specifically: What do you think of Muslims demanding incorporation of Sharia Laws into the existing and established laws of a country that was generous enough to allow them in as legal immigrants?

Please address this issue, because it really bugs Westerners! Why? Because....]


...we can only conclude you want to stage a cultural invasion, and you'll continue to witness a less-than-polite reaction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
Good deeds should be performed without the threat of eternal punishment or promised reward, but simply because they are the right thing to do.

I do have respect in me for things worthy of respect. I am aware that there are ethical Muslims, just as there are ethical Christians, ...

I do not respect those who make posts who immediately quote the contents of their 'holy' books as if it were a 'given' that we will all accept such quotes as 'gospel truth' (pun intended).
Agreed. Sadly we are all too often treated to an unintelligible Farsi quote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cokatie View Post

To simply have you wash your hands of the most radical members of your religion and say "Well, what can we do about them" is a cop-out. These radicals are painting your religion in a very bad light and the more moderate among you - who I believe to be the vast majority of believers of your faith - needs to get a handle on it. It must come from within your own faith.
As others have said, can you actually imagine a shadowy organization within Western Christianity that regularly plans and carries out bombings of innocents, and then runs wild in the streets cheering and burning the local flag?

Are you absolutely denying such things? Why then do we see it at least once a month on TV? BBC/CNN, and all the US alphabet networks?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
...theyre crazy over there. they wont listen to us but do not think that we are not trying.

They are not just limited to "over there" sukrill! by our generosity, we have allowed them in legally, though not so much any more; we're learning our lessons... [As well, many are sneaking in across that transparent Mexican border. another troublesome issue...]
All this is changing because of what we've learned about Islam's basic tenets as well as it's total inability to self-police..

humdallah we have some brave brothers and sisters that have the money and the time to go over and try and stop what is being done. the most powerful nation on the face of the earth cannot even stop them,

[that's because of the cowardly way that "radical Islam" chooses to sneak around and fight, using innocents to cover their activities. Utter cowards, without ethics or morals, but nonetheless under the proud badge of Islam!]

but ignorant people... think that just because we both read the same books or pray 5 times a day then we can magically make them stop.

No-one's asking for magic, just perseverance. Given the monstrosity of their activities, you have to take very strident and vigorous actions. Do not trust anyone until you know truly them or their mindsets.


Otherwise, you will all eventually be kicked out. I'm just saying! We will not tolerate continued cowardly acts of terrorism. Do your part! If we ever heard of a group of peace-loving Muslims turning in their terrorist brothers here in the US, it would truly change people's opinion. We're all waiting but so far? nothing, ever!

islam is islam. and terrorism is not what islam practices. my only point was that just because were muslims doesnt mean we have the power to stop them
Yes, in fact you certainly do have the power to at least publicly denounce it, which we do not ever see! Where are the street parades against radical Islam? And again, why do we see the chanting, angry mobs in the streets of the ME, with pitchforks and torches and Death to The Infidel, or Kill Americans posters? Why, sukrill? Where's the angry crowds of "peaceful" Muslims yelling those radicals down? With "Radical Islam kills innocent women and children!" posters?

Here's an idea: I'll make a few such posters up and send them to you, and you can send us all back a picture of you in a parade with my signs, OK?

Unless, in fact, those rowdy street chanters are really NOT so radical after all? Well, if so, they will eventually be all dead, courtesy of their own actions and our inevitable response. In self defense you understand! They will all get to go to Paradise!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
i understand what your talking about but just because they find it admirable and build shrines for them does not make it part of islam.

Wrong. That enshrinement has simply become part of it now, incorporated into the new version of modern Islam, given that otherwise those coward's mothers would have to accept that their children were evil, horrid, cowardly murders of women & children. So instead they immortalize them! Imagine! Glorifying Cowards! What a religion!

...that doesnt mean its part of what islam teaches. its not what muslims practice. but still that doesnt mean that what theyre doing is right
What a sad and sorry state for your spiritual belief system!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cokatie View Post
I'm sorry Sukrill, ... I believe if more of your powerful Imans spoke out both in your mosques and in public calling for this radical element to stop, it would help both your image - and perhaps make a few of them come to their senses and stop thinking of all non-Muslims as something they need to kill.

As for thinking that these types of radical Muslims only exist overseas, I think we both know that is not the case. They are also here in the United States, attending local mosques, headed by local Imans.

No, I really think that the change MUST come from within. From both your lay members and from your Imans.
Absolutely, because our way of waging war on this abomination of a religion is not working, and eventually we'll have to get out "the really big guns", so to speak. Again, in our own self-defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cokatie View Post
The sort of radical tendencies we have seen in recent years by some members of your religion are not going to change - you are right. That is both the case here in the US and overseas.

However, as I understand it, your mosques often have Islamic schools attached. It is THIS younger generation where the change must take place.

Hatred is learned in the home and at school. If respect for other religions was taught at your schools, and that any kind of terrorism is wrong and is murder, and that the words of Mohammed were being distorted by an evil few bringing fear into communities and hatred from other people, then it would slowly change.

This is where the Imans would have to step up to ensure that this was being taught. And this is where parents have to to step up to ensure that their children are being taught about the right side of Islam.

Is this not an option? Is it something that could be asked of your own personal Iman?
Good suggestion. Please do give us an answer, and also let us know what your personal action plan and that of your friends is in these regards, sukrill. Else I'd have to conclude you're an "armchair" Muslim who is happy to let the radicals take over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nari View Post
Paradise=الجنة

بسم الله الرحمان الرحيم
In the name of God the Merciful

God has said in the Quran:
“And give good news (O Muhammad) to those who believe and do good deeds, that they will have gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow....” (Quran 2:25)
God has also said:
“Race one with another for forgiveness from your Lord and for Paradise, whose width is as the width of the heavens and the earth, which has been prepared for those who believe in God and His messengers....” (Quran 57:21)
The Prophet Muhammad, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, told us that the lowest in rank among the dwellers of Paradise will have ten times the like of this world,[1] and he or she will have whatever he or she desires and ten times like it.[2] Also, the Prophet Muhammad said: “A space in Paradise equivalent to the size of a foot would be better than the world and what is in it.”[3] He also said: “In Paradise there are things which no eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no human mind has thought of.”[4] He also said: “The most miserable man in the world of those meant for Paradise will be dipped once in Paradise. Then he will be asked, ‘Son of Adam, did you ever face any misery? Did you ever experience any hardship?’ So he will say, ‘No, by God, O Lord! I never faced any misery, and I never experienced any hardship.’”[5]
If you enter Paradise, you will live a very happy life without sickness, pain, sadness, or death; God will be pleased with you; and you will live there forever. God has said in the Quran:
“But those who believe and do good deeds, We will admit them to gardens (Paradise) in which rivers flow, lasting in them forever....” (Quran 4:57

Overall, this definitely sounds like an offering that appeals to the childlike hopes in the illiterate, those who are existing in abject poverty. Interesting that Islam is not growing in the ranks of the educated or well-off, only in those who are in a hopeless socio-economic state, with little to lose and much to gain (well, at least in their imaginations).

BTW, regarding your quotes above, "We will admit "those who do good deeds..." Quite an open-ended statement, yes? What if those "good deeds" include blowing some innocent people in a marketplace to bits?

Anyhow, once the "newbies" are convinced, it's only a short step to convince some of the new converted but naive males to radicalize and blow some American, British, Canadian, German, Norwegian, Aussie or French mother's sons apart. Thus the Cycle of Hatred is perpetrated!

BTW: Did you see the movie Babel?

Last edited by rifleman; 06-12-2010 at 12:45 PM..
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