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Old 06-17-2010, 03:57 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Sukrill, Though I think you'll refrain from honestly answering, I'm now pretty sure you're a young person, probably male, and more than convinced of the righteous honor of Islam. But when presented with hard facts about your country, you attack me for participating in a debate by citing known historical facts about the typical combative modern Islamic attitude. We all hear, at least weekly, about another suicide bomber attack by Muslim extremists. Not Catholic extremists, or atheist extremists, but Muslim extremists. Hmmm..

rifleman let me guess your probably an older guy who thinks he knows everything about everything and someone who unless is forced to say hes wrong will never admit it...

since your "obviously" soooooo much smarter than me... think about this real quick, if suicide bombing and killing of non believers were valid then why isnt VERY muslim doing it... why just the radicals?.... probably because its not part of islam...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
So sorry; if you choose to come to these fora and discuss such issues, you'll get a sampling of our attitudes and conclusions about your beloved but apparently increasingly demanding and hostile religion. It is very dogmatic and intolerant, that part's well established.

BTW, I politely asked you, on another thread, to name which current, modern Islamic nation you respect, and that embodies Islam as you claim it to be. Pakistan? Iran (whose wack-job and vicious dictator you do not even recognize? You must be very young and ill-read!)? Iraq? Somalia? Nigeria?

Which one? Answer this simple question please.

your asking me to choose a country? i was born in the states, raised in the states, and im not going to promote what theyre doing over there. i follow what the quran teaches. thats it. i make some mistakes but im not perfect. so what. im not beating women, killing people, because thats not what the quran teaches... im saying this again and again but its still not going through...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
And so it continues. You admit it's OK for you to kill me then. Nice!

wow seriously? when did i say that, now your saying i said things i didnt.. Nice!
[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Sukrill, you are obviously not a well-read, capable nor informed defender of Islam here. I'd suggest some other more erudite and eloquent debater step in and rescue you before you self-destruct.

wow. you have no idea how degrading that is what you just said. its an insult if you think that i would believe blowing myself up is something i can agree with. whatever guy. you need to read alot more before you open your mouth and turn off the tv...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Else, I have nothing more to say to you. Said it all already. Your hopeless ad hominems against me do nothing to advance your case either, and endless re-stating of the same tired points to just hear yourself babble is not a worthwhile use of your time, and is not very convincing either!
yes i know... over and over and over and ur still not getting it... *sigh*
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:44 PM
 
40,036 posts, read 26,715,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post

rifleman let me guess your probably an older guy who thinks he knows everything about everything and someone who unless is forced to say hes wrong will never admit it...since your "obviously" soooooo much smarter than me... think about this real quick, if suicide bombing and killing of non believers were valid then why isnt VERY muslim doing it... why just the radicals?.... probably because its not part of islam...
your asking me to choose a country? i was born in the states, raised in the states, and im not going to promote what theyre doing over there. i follow what the quran teaches. thats it. i make some mistakes but im not perfect. so what. im not beating women, killing people, because thats not what the quran teaches... im saying this again and again but its still not going through...
wow seriously? when did i say that, now your saying i said things i didnt.. Nice!
wow. you have no idea how degrading that is what you just said. its an insult if you think that i would believe blowing myself up is something i can agree with. whatever guy. you need to read alot more before you open your mouth and turn off the tv...
yes i know... over and over and over and ur still not getting it... *sigh*
Sukrill . . . you are obviously a victim of the concerted deception campaign and you have no idea what the religion you have joined is really all about. Peace. You will never convince any of the older and wiser here to fall for the same propaganda and lies that you have been gullible enough to believe. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that a religion that seeks to RULE over the world . . . is remotely peaceful or tolerant. ANY religion that embraces coercion or barbarism in any form whatsoever . . . is an abomination to God. God requires that we freely and willingly adopt the principles of agape love.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:09 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,374 times
Reputation: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sukrill . . . you are obviously a victim of the concerted deception campaign and you have no idea what the religion you have joined is really all about. Peace. You will never convince any of the older and wiser here to fall for the same propaganda and lies that you have been gullible enough to believe. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that a religion that seeks to RULE over the world . . . is remotely peaceful or tolerant. ANY religion that embraces coercion or barbarism in any form whatsoever . . . is an abomination to God. God requires that we freely and willingly adopt the principles of agape love.
is that the only rule? and you know nothing about islam if you think its barbaric or full of lies. please. save your breath...
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Old 06-18-2010, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,367,457 times
Reputation: 3735
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post

rifleman let me guess your probably an older guy who thinks he knows everything about everything and someone who unless is forced to say hes wrong will never admit it...

Not hardly son. I do have some specific education and experiences you probably have not, in very specific areas of established knowledge. But... as is the case here, if someone comes along and tells his medical GP,
let's say, that living cells don't exist, the antibiotic in the syringe is all a hoax, and that the human brain is located in the left foot, then hey; what can we reasonably conclude about that person's level of knowledge? It's all quite quite elementary and obvious, my boy.

You claim to be a well read knowledgeable fellow about Islam, and yet you don't even know who Mahamoud Ahmadinejah, one of the world's foremost proclaimers of Islam, is, or what his full reputation is. (He's the Prez of Iran, BTW)

You also will not answer my simple question about which Islamic state currently exists and represents the Islam you defend. I continue to ask that honest, simple question.

since your "obviously" soooooo much smarter than me...

Nope. But; Q 2 for you: who do you think might know more about the nuts and botls of genetics, evolution, geology and engineering than you? Unless you have (unlikely) dedicated yourself to the relentless pursuit of education I got caught up in for a combined 18 years in school? And then a professional career using that information, with refresher courses every once in a while, for another 25 years? You or me? Take your best "wild" guess.

I'm a bit of an unusual case in this regard, but what it HAS taught me is to continue to ALWAYS be open to new information. But you just stumble in here, make silly unsupported statements about things being fantasies and garbage, but won't say why. Except that you don't want to believe it, or you assume that the Kook-Ran tells it like it's the truth. Me? I tend to honestly question most everything that I see or read, and I ask a lot of questions, which you, as our acknowledged expert on Islam won't answer. Hmmm! Apparently you do not read or question so much. In that respect then, I'd say, yes, I might be "smarter" than you. Or maybe "wiser" is a better term. Yeah; wiser.


.think about this real quick, if suicide bombing and killing of non believers were valid then why isnt VERY muslim doing it... why just the radicals?.... probably because its not part of islam...

Remember though; they constantly assure us it IS Islam. So, if not, then do something about it: it's the rep your chosen religion has somewhat deservedly received, now isn't that so?

wow seriously? when did i say that, now your saying i said things i didnt.. Nice!
No. Tell me the Qu'Ran does or does not say that the infidel should be killed or can be killed, and that's not a sin. I suppose this is simple Q#3. (BTW, be forewarned: I know exactly where the passage is. Do you, or do you just try to skate over that part, or tell us "it's just no longer considered valid?")

Do tell us, sukrill. Please.


yes i know... over and over and over and ur still not getting it... *sigh*[/quote]

Well... Actually, for me, things have to be well presented before I even start to read them, and I do not generally watch the TV for news. Too much stuff about Muslims blowing people up, daily, all over the world. You have a major PR problem, not me or the West. and hence your previous blustering statement about Islam someday ruling the world? just typical yowling, in fact. And even more proof that it will actually fail miserably and predictably as a world-domination dogma.

You remain unconvincing to any of us, by popular vote and comment. But still, if you
believe it, that's what's important here, right? Keep the sheep bleating quietly in the field, eh?

IMHO, as always.
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,507,068 times
Reputation: 258
Does the QUran'ic faith have a plausible interpretation for the good and bad thief being hung on the cross next to Jesus Christ. Paradoxically one may permit himself to be a bad thief for ethical reasons. In Christianity that is argued that he was bitter at the misunderstanding he needs to accept about the consequences for his actions. But he turns on God for the failure to note how ethics was supposed to work for the common Good.

In the Qu'ran I guessed that he understands he can't be a fool but just the same is. Am I right?
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,872 posts, read 31,747,081 times
Reputation: 12620
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
is that the only rule? and you know nothing about islam if you think its barbaric or full of lies. please. save your breath...

Really now? You actually think this is nothing but propaganda?

Approximately 50 Islamic states and countries have, to varying degrees, Sharia law,

Some common features of Sharia law, some taken from the Koran, some from subsequent legal texts:

* While in public, women must cover their faces with a Hijab.

* Men can have up to four wives and can divorce (called talaq) at their option. If they do not divorce their first wife but just abandon her, she is obliged to carry on as a married woman and cannot seek out another spouse without risking the traditional punishment for adultery: stoning. Stoning is done in public by first wrapping a person in a blanket and burying them in a deep hole exposing their head and the population gathered around is invited to throw large stones at the adulterer, the size of which Sharia law prescribes, and a sentence always fatal.Hibab

* The penalty after a fourth conviction of a homosexual act is death.

* Adoption is not allowed. Adults can become guardians of the children of others but not the legal parents through adoption.

* Sharia law prohibits dating and marriage between a Muslim and a non-Muslim and it is practically impossible for a Muslim (even a recent convert) to renounce the Muslim faith.

* Any abandonment of the Muslim faith is itself a serious crime (apostasy) with severe punishment.

* Sharia law has a stringent evidentiary requirement for eye witnesses, preferably from men. Convictions for crimes cannot be based on circumstantial evidence alone.

* Vagrancy can carry tough penalties such as jail and caning.

* Generally, a person alleged to have violated Sharia laws in the states governed by them would not be pursued, or apprehended, in states not governed by Sharia laws.

* Many states which implement Sharia law have blasphemy statutes which punishes by prison or death any person who such as preaching Christianity or the distribution of Christian items.

Adherents of Sharia law believe it to be divinely inspired; as the word of God (Allah).
http://www.duhaime.org/legaldictionary/S/ShariaLaw.aspx


This my friend is your religion of "peace"
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:21 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,374 times
Reputation: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
You claim to be a well read knowledgeable fellow about Islam, and yet you don't even know who Mahamoud Ahmadinejah, one of the world's foremost proclaimers of Islam, is, or what his full reputation is. (He's the Prez of Iran, BTW)

You also will not answer my simple question about which Islamic state currently exists and represents the Islam you defend. I continue to ask that honest, simple question.
so what if i dont know who that guy is. i dont need to know about that guy to know about islam. especially if hes not practicing islam the way its supposed to be practiced. the simple question i already answered, there will be many different sects of islam but i just follow the quran and the words of the prophet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Nope. But; Q 2 for you: who do you think might know more about the nuts and botls of genetics, evolution, geology and engineering than you? Unless you have (unlikely) dedicated yourself to the relentless pursuit of education I got caught up in for a combined 18 years in school? And then a professional career using that information, with refresher courses every once in a while, for another 25 years? You or me? Take your best "wild" guess.
my answer is Allah. Allah has shown me all i need to know. i dont need to know what does what or how genetics work, i dont need to know about geology, even though this is all intresting it doesnt help as far as living a peaceful life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
No. Tell me the Qu'Ran does or does not say that the infidel should be killed or can be killed, and that's not a sin. I suppose this is simple Q#3. (BTW, be forewarned: I know exactly where the passage is. Do you, or do you just try to skate over that part, or tell us "it's just no longer considered valid?")

*sigh* i give you an answer. that the law is no longer valid. which is why a majority of muslims, not including the extremist/terrorist, dont do it. i know where the passage is. ive been shown the same verse sooo many times its annoying. so i give an answer and non believers REFUSE It. thats not my fault that people are ignorant and want to believe something thats no longer valid. thats people wanting to hold onto the thought that there is something wrong with islam. good try but its been proven that this time has passed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Do tell us, sukrill. Please.
i just did but guaranteed youll keep saying that im not right and that you are...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Well... Actually, for me, things have to be well presented before I even start to read them, and I do not generally watch the TV for news. Too much stuff about Muslims blowing people up, daily, all over the world. You have a major PR problem, not me or the West. and hence your previous blustering statement about Islam someday ruling the world? just typical yowling, in fact. And even more proof that it will actually fail miserably and predictably as a world-domination dogma.

Rifleman notes: I agree. You obviously don't read or listen to world media reports else you would not be so defensive about the Islam you do not understand.

you just basically said you dont listen to the media/news and then you make it clear that you do...i defend the righteous way of islam. the way its supposed to be practiced. not what you see on the media or hear on the news. your watching a bunch of corrupt people and a bunch of terrorist... and its like i said over and over they can say what they want in the name of islam and in the name of allah. they can say whatever they want but that doesnt make it part of islam no matter how much they preach it..

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
You remain unconvincing to any of us, by popular vote and comment. But still, if you believe it, that's what's important here, right? Keep the sheep bleating quietly in the field, eh?

IMHO, as always.
i may be unconvincing to you and a few others who refuse the answers that i give, however its like how Imam Ash-Shaafi'ee said, 'i have never debated with a knowledgeable person, except that i won the debate, and i have never debated with an ignorant person, except that i lost."
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:42 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,374 times
Reputation: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Really now? You actually think this is nothing but propaganda?

Approximately 50 Islamic states and countries have, to varying degrees, Sharia law,

Some common features of Sharia law, some taken from the Koran, some from subsequent legal texts:

* While in public, women must cover their faces with a Hijab.
you obviously dont know why women must do this over there. if you did you wouldnt have brought this up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
* Men can have up to four wives and can divorce (called talaq) at their option. If they do not divorce their first wife but just abandon her, she is obliged to carry on as a married woman and cannot seek out another spouse without risking the traditional punishment for adultery: stoning. Stoning is done in public by first wrapping a person in a blanket and burying them in a deep hole exposing their head and the population gathered around is invited to throw large stones at the adulterer, the size of which Sharia law prescribes, and a sentence always fatal.Hibab
i have no idea where your reading this... the woman can divorce just as much as the man can... and idk where you found this stoning story from...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
* The penalty after a fourth conviction of a homosexual act is death.
where does it say this? and homosexuality is forbidden in islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
* Adoption is not allowed. Adults can become guardians of the children of others but not the legal parents through adoption.
where does it say this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
* Sharia law prohibits dating and marriage between a Muslim and a non-Muslim and it is practically impossible for a Muslim (even a recent convert) to renounce the Muslim faith.
dating is prohibited in islam, correct. however your wrong about the muslim marrying a non muslim. if thats part of the sharia law that your reading its not part of islam because the quran says that you can marry a christian or a jew. you can find that in the quran...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
* Any abandonment of the Muslim faith is itself a serious crime (apostasy) with severe punishment.
true. that was back in the day though. thats not practiced today in islam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
* Sharia law has a stringent evidentiary requirement for eye witnesses, preferably from men. Convictions for crimes cannot be based on circumstantial evidence alone.
where does it say this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
* Vagrancy can carry tough penalties such as jail and caning.
where does it say this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
* Generally, a person alleged to have violated Sharia laws in the states governed by them would not be pursued, or apprehended, in states not governed by Sharia laws.
i didnt understand this... maybe you can reword it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
* Many states which implement Sharia law have blasphemy statutes which punishes by prison or death any person who such as preaching Christianity or the distribution of Christian items.
where does it state this?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Adherents of Sharia law believe it to be divinely inspired; as the word of God (Allah).
Legal Definition of Sharia Law


This my friend is your religion of "peace"
All muslims believe Sharia is God's law, but they have differences between themselves as to exactly what it entails. Modernists, traditionalists and fundamentalists all hold different views of Sharia, as do adherents to different schools of Islamic thought and scholarship. Different countries and cultures have varying interpretations of Sharia, as well.

it all depends on which ones you look at, you just found a bad one i guess, because this isnt the islam that the prophet taught... mohammad brought peace.
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Old 06-18-2010, 09:51 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,374 times
Reputation: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgnostic View Post
Does the QUran'ic faith have a plausible interpretation for the good and bad thief being hung on the cross next to Jesus Christ. Paradoxically one may permit himself to be a bad thief for ethical reasons. In Christianity that is argued that he was bitter at the misunderstanding he needs to accept about the consequences for his actions. But he turns on God for the failure to note how ethics was supposed to work for the common Good.

In the Qu'ran I guessed that he understands he can't be a fool but just the same is. Am I right?
Well Jesus Christ was never crucified. but it doesnt say anything about the thief in the quran.
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,872 posts, read 31,747,081 times
Reputation: 12620
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
you obviously dont know why women must do this over there. if you did you wouldnt have brought this up.



i have no idea where your reading this... the woman can divorce just as much as the man can... and idk where you found this stoning story from...



where does it say this? and homosexuality is forbidden in islam.



where does it say this?



dating is prohibited in islam, correct. however your wrong about the muslim marrying a non muslim. if thats part of the sharia law that your reading its not part of islam because the quran says that you can marry a christian or a jew. you can find that in the quran...



true. that was back in the day though. thats not practiced today in islam.



where does it say this?



where does it say this?



i didnt understand this... maybe you can reword it...



where does it state this?...



All muslims believe Sharia is God's law, but they have differences between themselves as to exactly what it entails. Modernists, traditionalists and fundamentalists all hold different views of Sharia, as do adherents to different schools of Islamic thought and scholarship. Different countries and cultures have varying interpretations of Sharia, as well.

it all depends on which ones you look at, you just found a bad one i guess, because this isnt the islam that the prophet taught... mohammad brought peace.
Where did I see these things you say? I provided a link, and if that is not enough do a little research....You obviously know little about the religion you have adopted...

Here, I'll help you out.

Islam: Governing Under Sharia - Council on Foreign Relations

Light of Life: The Penalties for Apostasy in Islam

Saudi: Shariah court sentences teen student to lashings, in front of students

I urge you to watch this video, so you can see for yourself the real Islam.

SHARIA LAW : ISLAMIC JUSTICE
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