U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-22-2010, 04:11 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,735,360 times
Reputation: 591

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
If we are to take the story as is Muhammad initially did not profit from what he said. Quite the contrary he was boycotted which apparently led to the death of his beloved wife Khadija died. He was also threatened with death on occasion. It is true that years later he would lead a successful Empire, but I don't think charlatans normally think "okay this con will cause my loved ones to starve to death in a year-long period, and cause me to get death threats, but in the long-run it's going to be gravy!"

If we are to disregard what sources we have than Muhammad can be whatever the heck you want him to be more or less. From nice-guy pacifist to slathering con-man.

I'm not Muslim, but I think it's likely Muhammad was either initially sincere or at least somewhat sincere throughout. One can be sincere and still be incorrect.
So you are saying he is crazy? The mormon leader, joseph smith also took a long time to profit from his claims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-22-2010, 05:29 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,991,559 times
Reputation: 6688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
So you are saying he is crazy?
Not entirely, but I think I would come closer to supporting "he was crazy" (although I might put it more charitably like "he was maybe a little crazy") more than I would support saying he was a charlatan. I don't think he was making outrageous claims simply for the attention or the money. If that was all it was I think he would have dumped it after enough pressure. Or at least left Mecca much earlier than he did to look for people he could trick better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
The mormon leader, joseph smith also took a long time to profit from his claims.
That's an interesting point and I think there are some similarities between Joseph Smith and Muhammad.

I'm not sure how I feel about Joseph Smith. There's enough there I think he maybe was kind of a charlatan, more for attention than money, but there are also things there that make me think he was kind-of sincere. What I've seen and read I think it's plausible he did feel he had some kind of divine mission or message. However maybe he felt like it wasn't developed enough, or maybe he just lacked confidence, so he "filled in the blanks" with some silliness about tablets and using a magic hat or whatever. Maybe a bit like how Thomas Chatterton lacked confidence in his writing so claimed it was all Medieval poetry he was translating. I don't know.

So okay maybe on reflecting I could see Muhammad as like semi-charlatan. Like he was sincere about monotheism, and a few other points, but maybe much of the rest was him getting caught up in things that became increasingly elaborate. Or maybe both Muhammad and Joseph Smith were completely sincere, and sane, in all things. Hard telling I suppose.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-22-2010, 07:10 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,735,360 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Not entirely, but I think I would come closer to supporting "he was crazy" (although I might put it more charitably like "he was maybe a little crazy") more than I would support saying he was a charlatan. I don't think he was making outrageous claims simply for the attention or the money. If that was all it was I think he would have dumped it after enough pressure. Or at least left Mecca much earlier than he did to look for people he could trick better.



That's an interesting point and I think there are some similarities between Joseph Smith and Muhammad.

I'm not sure how I feel about Joseph Smith. There's enough there I think he maybe was kind of a charlatan, more for attention than money, but there are also things there that make me think he was kind-of sincere. What I've seen and read I think it's plausible he did feel he had some kind of divine mission or message. However maybe he felt like it wasn't developed enough, or maybe he just lacked confidence, so he "filled in the blanks" with some silliness about tablets and using a magic hat or whatever. Maybe a bit like how Thomas Chatterton lacked confidence in his writing so claimed it was all Medieval poetry he was translating. I don't know.

So okay maybe on reflecting I could see Muhammad as like semi-charlatan. Like he was sincere about monotheism, and a few other points, but maybe much of the rest was him getting caught up in things that became increasingly elaborate. Or maybe both Muhammad and Joseph Smith were completely sincere, and sane, in all things. Hard telling I suppose.
Muhammad's wife, the kid Ashia, was accused of being unfaithful, Muhammad then declared her innocent after divine "revelation" and decreed that from then on all accusations of adultery must have four reliable male witnesses and had the accusers punished.

Does this sound like a man who doesn't know he is lying?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-22-2010, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,673,940 times
Reputation: 3949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Muhammad's wife, the kid Ashia, was accused of being unfaithful, Muhammad then declared her innocent after divine "revelation" and decreed that from then on all accusations of adultery must have four reliable male witnesses and had the accusers punished.

Does this sound like a man who doesn't know he is lying?
Even Aisha herself sarcastically noticed that Muhammad's revelations were often very... convenient.


Quote:
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 311:
Narrated Aisha:
I used to look down upon those ladies who had given themselves to Allah's Apostle and I used to say, "Can a lady give herself (to a man)?" But when Allah revealed: "You (O Muhammad) can postpone (the turn of) whom you will of them (your wives), and you may receive any of them whom you will; and there is no blame on you if you invite one whose turn you have set aside (temporarily).' (33.51) I said (to the Prophet), "I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-22-2010, 10:24 AM
 
Location: The Milky Way Galaxy
2,256 posts, read 6,085,981 times
Reputation: 1511
Why Muhammad IS another charlatan is he tries to refrain me from eating bacon.

He must not be all-powerful because I've consumed many pounds of bacon in my lifetime so far
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-22-2010, 03:19 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,991,559 times
Reputation: 6688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Muhammad's wife, the kid Ashia, was accused of being unfaithful, Muhammad then declared her innocent after divine "revelation" and decreed that from then on all accusations of adultery must have four reliable male witnesses and had the accusers punished.

Does this sound like a man who doesn't know he is lying?
That's the later Muhammad I believe. I was thinking more his time in Mecca.

That in Medina his outlook became clouded by his own ambitions and needs is something I'm quite open to. Remember I'm not a Muslim. I think Muhammad had a mix of good and bad qualities, but as religious founders go I'd put him as not one of my favorites.

Still I can recognize or believe that he was initially sincere, at least about parts of it, and did have a vision for what he felt would be a better society. That he was compassionate to widows and orphans and baby girls killed in infanticide. It doesn't change that he was a fairly warlike guy who had some ideas I find very wrong. Things and people don't have to be black and white though. You can think Muhammad had some good qualities without thinking he's a Prophet or without even thinking he was a good guy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-22-2010, 05:22 PM
 
397 posts, read 535,062 times
Reputation: 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
That's the later Muhammad I believe. I was thinking more his time in Mecca.

That in Medina his outlook became clouded by his own ambitions and needs is something I'm quite open to. Remember I'm not a Muslim. I think Muhammad had a mix of good and bad qualities, but as religious founders go I'd put him as not one of my favorites.

Still I can recognize or believe that he was initially sincere, at least about parts of it, and did have a vision for what he felt would be a better society. That he was compassionate to widows and orphans and baby girls killed in infanticide. It doesn't change that he was a fairly warlike guy who had some ideas I find very wrong. Things and people don't have to be black and white though. You can think Muhammad had some good qualities without thinking he's a Prophet or without even thinking he was a good guy.
ahh bro, dont try explaining anything to gplex. its going back and forth for a while now and all he can do is say im lying or that my information is incorrect when i can gaurantee you hes never read the quran. hes just like all the other people here that google some stuff and think they know about islam, or they watch tv and say thats true islam. i wouldnt bother... just remember that the prophet said there will be people that no matter what you do will refuse the word of god. humdallah...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2010, 04:24 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,735,360 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
ahh bro, dont try explaining anything to gplex. its going back and forth for a while now and all he can do is say im lying or that my information is incorrect when i can gaurantee you hes never read the quran. hes just like all the other people here that google some stuff and think they know about islam, or they watch tv and say thats true islam. i wouldnt bother... just remember that the prophet said there will be people that no matter what you do will refuse the word of god. humdallah...
I read the quran, and I never said you lied, I said muhammad lied. The word of MUHAMMAD not god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
That's the later Muhammad I believe. I was thinking more his time in Mecca.

That in Medina his outlook became clouded by his own ambitions and needs is something I'm quite open to. Remember I'm not a Muslim. I think Muhammad had a mix of good and bad qualities, but as religious founders go I'd put him as not one of my favorites.

Still I can recognize or believe that he was initially sincere, at least about parts of it, and did have a vision for what he felt would be a better society. That he was compassionate to widows and orphans and baby girls killed in infanticide. It doesn't change that he was a fairly warlike guy who had some ideas I find very wrong. Things and people don't have to be black and white though. You can think Muhammad had some good qualities without thinking he's a Prophet or without even thinking he was a good guy.
I dislike all people who start a religion. Muhammad has been record in history as a child marrying, mass murdering, thief, who was a slave trader. He obviously faked his own divine revelations for his own convenience..

Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Even Aisha herself sarcastically noticed that Muhammad's revelations were often very... convenient.
lol, I don't remember seeing that.. where did you get it from?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2010, 04:47 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,991,559 times
Reputation: 6688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
I dislike all people who start a religion.
Well that's a pity. I certainly know even atheists who can respect or even like religious founders based on the idea they were people in more primitive times trying to make sense of life or society or whatever as best they knew how. I'm certainly able to like, or at least like elements of, founders of non-theistic philosophies.

Religious founders are really pretty interesting and important individuals. It's a shame when atheists/agnostics/non-theists just shut themselves off to humanities and culture like this. Oh well, it's your life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Muhammad has been record in history as a child marrying, mass murdering, thief, who was a slave trader. He obviously faked his own divine revelations for his own convenience.
Muhammad was many things. Yeah he had people killed, plundered, and accepted slavery. He also gave more rights to women than many Arab tribes did, had rules on treatment of slaves, and emphasized charity. Praying to Mecca encouraged astronomy so they could no where Mecca was and the opposition to icons encouraged an interest in geometry.

Like I think I said early it's a shame people here often need everything to be very simple. Atheism is good or bad, religion is good or bad, Muhammad is good or bad, etc. If someone indicates sometimes things are more complicated than that they assume it's a trick or something.

Lastly the "he obviously did X" part is basically "opinion as fact." I don't think he had a divine revelation either, but if you just want to assert your own opinion as fact than I think starting this discussion was a waste of everyone's time. Not everyone wants or needs to have someone lecture them on why they're wrong.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-23-2010, 06:06 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,735,360 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Well that's a pity. I certainly know even atheists who can respect or even like religious founders based on the idea they were people in more primitive times trying to make sense of life or society or whatever as best they knew how. I'm certainly able to like, or at least like elements of, founders of non-theistic philosophies.

Religious founders are really pretty interesting and important individuals. It's a shame when atheists/agnostics/non-theists just shut themselves off to humanities and culture like this. Oh well, it's your life.
I hate Hitler and everyone who thinks like him, but it doesn't mean I will shut myself off from knowing about them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Muhammad was many things. Yeah he had people killed, plundered, and accepted slavery. He also gave more rights to women than many Arab tribes did, had rules on treatment of slaves, and emphasized charity. Praying to Mecca encouraged astronomy so they could no where Mecca was and the opposition to icons encouraged an interest in geometry.

Like I think I said early it's a shame people here often need everything to be very simple. Atheism is good or bad, religion is good or bad, Muhammad is good or bad, etc. If someone indicates sometimes things are more complicated than that they assume it's a trick or something.

Lastly the "he obviously did X" part is basically "opinion as fact." I don't think he had a divine revelation either, but if you just want to assert your own opinion as fact than I think starting this discussion was a waste of everyone's time. Not everyone wants or needs to have someone lecture them on why they're wrong.
Yes, women where no longer treated as animal type slaves, but moved indoors and became house slaves. No longer could a women own property. Muhammad first wife was a rich and powerful women, but muhammad did his best to make sure no man would ever be put under the thumb of a women (like he was when his first wife employed him).

This argument is as sill as jesusfreak777 claiming that christian slavery was not as bad as normal slavery.

YouTube - Slavery: The Happy Days.

A few good deeds, do not undo the horrors this man has committed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top