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Old 06-25-2010, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,647,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Even if Muhammad has all these negative qualities this may not relate to the behaviors of actual Muslims and being so overly hostile to Islam is not really in our best interest. Some Muslims are more allegorical or spiritual-oriented with their ideals. Others are basically half-Muslim in that they mix Islam with pre-Islamic customs. You see this a good deal in West Africa. Mali and Senegal have problems with female circumcision, but mostly they're fairly free societies albeit poor ones. The Turks have a good deal of moderate Muslims as do the Balkans.
This is a critical consideration that must be made when dealing with Muslims. It is a necessary consideration when trying to apply law or sustain justice for individuals.

It is a far more difficult case to consider when the discussion is Islam. And it is a rather impossible case when dealing with an accounting of Muhammad himself. There can be no facile dismissal of the historical truth that "Islam has bloody borders." Any serious explanation of Islamic history requires a fearless assessment of what it is about Islam that might contribute to that character. And no such assessment is possible without an equally fearless assessment of the character of its founder.

I have lived in a Muslim nation, and know better than the vast majority of Americans that Muslims are not fairly represented by the Taliban or Al Qaeda. But even among the most "liberal" and westernized of Muslims, Muhammad remains untouchable as the exemplar of perfect human behavior. And objectively within all of contemporary Islam, it is the Taliban and Al Qaeda that have the greatest fidelity to Muhammad as a model.

This deeply politically incorrect observation is one that, frankly, we ignore (and Muslims themselves ignore) only at our own peril.
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Old 06-25-2010, 11:52 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,731,102 times
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Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Muhammad remains untouchable as the exemplar of perfect human behavior
That reminds me of this video..

YouTube - islam women vs christian man
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Old 06-28-2010, 05:36 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,424 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
He's not necessarily lying as Saudi Arabia is ruled by Wahhabism which is a variant form of Islam. Saudis often restricted things that are common in many Muslim societies like Sufism and celebrating Muhammad's birthday.

Even if Muhammad has all these negative qualities this may not relate to the behaviors of actual Muslims and being so overly hostile to Islam is not really in our best interest. Some Muslims are more allegorical or spiritual-oriented with their ideals. Others are basically half-Muslim in that they mix Islam with pre-Islamic customs. You see this a good deal in West Africa. Mali and Senegal have problems with female circumcision, but mostly they're fairly free societies albeit poor ones. The Turks have a good deal of moderate Muslims as do the Balkans.
thanks for reading my post and explaining as a non muslim. for some reason people listen then... i have thanked you before and ill thank you again insha allah...
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:23 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,955,873 times
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Religious toleration and freedom is important to me. I like many atheists, but if atheists make themselves an enemy of religious toleration I will go against that even if the religion concerned is not precisely my favorite. For that matter I've went against fellow Catholics on this issue as well.

Although specific to atheist the kind of atheist that puts themselves up as not simply a disbeliever in religion, but as an enemy of religion, is a big turn-off to me. At my most sympathetic I find myself thinking "Maybe you're right, but if you're right I'd rather be wrong." I do not want to place myself as an enemy of Islam or Buddhism or Jainism or whatever. I am certainly willing to critique all these things, and even things in Catholic history, but I'm not interested or inclined to make myself a *"Sword of Truth" attacking them.

*Oddly this phrase is something I got from, I believe, Usman Dan Fodio of the Sokoto jihadi state in West Africa. That said Dan Fodio was fairly moderate and intellectual as jihadist state founders go.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:11 PM
 
40,043 posts, read 26,720,362 times
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Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Religious toleration and freedom is important to me. I like many atheists, but if atheists make themselves an enemy of religious toleration I will go against that even if the religion concerned is not precisely my favorite.
Tolerance is commendable used wisely . . . but as an absolute unwavering creed . . . it is extremely hazardous.
Quote:
. . . I do not want to place myself as an enemy of Islam or Buddhism or Jainism or whatever. I am certainly willing to critique all these things, and even things in Catholic history, but I'm not interested or inclined to make myself a *"Sword of Truth" attacking them.
This short list reveals the hazard I spoke of quite nicely. To cite Buddhism and Jainism as if they were comparable to Islam is the equivalent of citing gnats and common houseflies as potential hazards(or annoyances to tolerate) in the same list with a Kodiak Bear. There is no comparison. Islam is a deen and a complete "solution" to domination of the world (religious, political, economic, social and judicial). It is NOT a mere religion to be tolerated along with all the others. It tolerates others only until it can subdue and establish rule over them in the name of Allah..
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:29 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,955,873 times
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And I pretty much disagree. Islam is not a monolithic entity out to attack you. It is a billion people of various sects, schools, brotherhoods, etc. To treat it as some blob out to nuke the world or something is largely just paranoia.

And tolerance doesn't even really mean you like a thing. You don't "tolerate" music or art or food or drink or merriment. You "tolerate" people who are annoying or rude because the harm of doing otherwise is worse. Intolerance of Islam likely only makes it more intransigent and also effects the person in negative ways. A free nation has to tolerate Islam, as long as Islam obeys the laws and does not disrupt public order, or it is no longer a free nation.

Still comparing it to Buddhism or Jainism was probably wrong. In many respects I find Islam more sensible/sympathetic than Theravada Buddhism, but that's neither here nor there. I should have cited Orthodox Judaism, Sikhism, and Hinduism.
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