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Old 06-30-2010, 06:09 AM
 
1,055 posts, read 2,123,849 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
yuour missing the point, muhammad knew things that hadnt even been known for over a thousand years yet. you know from whats known today. theres a big difference.
Wrong. Lots of cultures (especially seafaring ones) made stories about life coming from the sea. Many of these cultures never had any contact with the Middle East as well. It is a well-known fact that the stuff Muhammad talked about were things that were already being discussed at the time.


Acting like you are stuck on stupid is not helping Islam in any way, shape, or form.
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Old 06-30-2010, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,670,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
Historiandude,

you can assume all you want she was a "prisoner of war in 7th Century Arabia" but fact is she wasnt. she could have ran away, killed him, etc. but she didnt because she was no prisoner at all.
It is simply a fact of history recognized even by the Hadith that she was a prisoner of war... one of at least three of Muhammad's wives or concubines gained this way. So, no assumptions there at all.

She would hardly be the only woman in history who preferred enslavement to death (or being handed off to one of Muhammad's followers). So why you find her story miraculous is, well, inexplicable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill
and you said "So... your claim here is that Muhammad was 50%-90% right"

dont tell me your beginning to twist my words around too... thats not what i said at all... you and i both know that so why do you try and say otherwise...
I am not twisting words; I am making a point. Almost without exception, Islamic claims of miracles in the Qur'an are pathetic. This one was simply made a little more fun by your own acknowledgment that it wasn't even 100% correct.
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Old 06-30-2010, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,670,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
yuour missing the point, muhammad knew things that hadnt even been known for over a thousand years yet. you know from whats known today. theres a big difference.
This is not true.

There is not a single example of this anywhere in the Qur'an.
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,670,945 times
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So... Sukrill, which of these is correct, and which are wrong.


Man was created out of water:
25:54 And He it is Who hath created man from water, and hath appointed for him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever Powerful.


24:45 Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

Man was created from a clot:
96:1-2 Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth, Createth man from a clot.

Man was created from clay or mud:
15:26 Verily We created man of potter’s clay of black mud altered,


32:7 Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;


38:71 When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire,


55:14 He created man of clay like the potter’s,

Man was created from dust:
30:20 And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely!


35:11 Allah created you from dust, then from a little fluid, then He made you pairs (the male and female). No female beareth or bringeth forth save with His knowledge. And no-one groweth old who groweth old, nor is aught lessened of his life, but it is recorded in a Book, Lo! that is easy for Allah.


It seems that Allah either could not make up His mind, or He just didn't remember.
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Old 06-30-2010, 12:13 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
So... Sukrill, which of these is correct, and which are wrong.


Man was created out of water:
25:54 And He it is Who hath created man from water, and hath appointed for him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever Powerful.


24:45 Allah hath created every animal of water. Of them is (a kind) that goeth upon its belly and (a kind) that goeth upon two legs and (a kind) that goeth upon four. Allah createth what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

Man was created from a clot:
96:1-2 Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth, Createth man from a clot (of blood).

Man was created from clay or mud:
15:26 Verily We created man of potter’s clay of black mud altered,


32:7 Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;


38:71 When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to create a mortal out of mire,


55:14 He created man of clay like the potter’s,

Man was created from dust:
30:20 And of His signs is this: He created you of dust, and behold you human beings, ranging widely!


35:11 Allah created you from dust, then from a little fluid, then He made you pairs (the male and female). No female beareth or bringeth forth save with His knowledge. And no-one groweth old who groweth old, nor is aught lessened of his life, but it is recorded in a Book, Lo! that is easy for Allah.


It seems that Allah either could not make up His mind, or He just didn't remember.
you were missing some things in those verses, but i helped you out. if we were made of clay, or mud, they both are also made up of water because in clay and mud there is water. no doubt. the dust verse is all the same, just say it how you want, clay, mud, dust, theres different translations in english, youd have to learn the arabic language to understand that. and blood is a mixture of cells and a watery liquid. theres no contradiction at all, they all make sense, your just making it seem like they dont. all these verses tie in together and they all basically mean the same things...

Blood consist of cellular material (99% red blood cells, with white blood cells and platelets making up the remainder), water, amino acids, proteins, carbohydrates, lipids, hormones, vitamins, electrolytes, dissolved gases, and cellular wastes. Each red blood cell is about 1/3 hemoglobin, by volume. Plasma is about 92% water, with plasma proteins as the most abundant solutes. The main plasma protein groups are albumins, globulins, and fibrinogens. The primary blood gases are oxygen, carbon dioxide, and nitrogen.

Reference:
Hole's Human Anatomy & Physiology, 9th Edition, McGraw Hill, 2002.
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Old 06-30-2010, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
20,894 posts, read 13,670,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
if we were made of clay, or mud, they both are also made up of water because in clay and mud there is water. no doubt. the dust verse is all the same, just say it how you want, clay, mud, dust, theres different translations in english, youd have to learn the arabic language to understand that. and blood is a mixture of cells and a watery liquid. theres no contradiction at all, they all make sense, your just making it seem like they dont. all these verses tie in together and they all basically mean the same things...
LOL... of course there is a contradiction. There are several. Allah is all over the map on this one. Now, I knew you would try and pretend that most of it was just Allah committing sins of omission... (leaving out the water in some places, leaving out the dirt in others), but the funniest one is your attempt to gloss over the blood clot.

Yes, blood is "a mixture of cells and a watery liquid.?

But water is not. Neither is clay, mud, dust or mire.

If we allow you the egregious latitude to pretend that these "basically mean the same things" then we have rendered the Qur'an itself meaningless. It can then mean anything we want it too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill
Blood consist of cellular material (99% red blood cells, with white blood cells and platelets making up the remainder), water, amino acids, proteins, carbohydrates, lipids, hormones, vitamins, electrolytes, dissolved gases, and cellular wastes. Each red blood cell is about 1/3 hemoglobin, by volume. Plasma is about 92% water, with plasma proteins as the most abundant solutes. The main plasma protein groups are albumins, globulins, and fibrinogens. The primary blood gases are oxygen, carbon dioxide, and nitrogen.

Reference:
Hole's Human Anatomy & Physiology, 9th Edition, McGraw Hill, 2002.
Nope. No dust, clay, mud or mire to be seen in that anywhere.

Thanks for playing.
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Old 06-30-2010, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,380,837 times
Reputation: 3735
Default Preditable, yet again. De-Ja-vu, all over again, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post

btw rifleboy

Quote:
Originally Posted by riflegirl
Nice!!
BTW: My simple comment was: if 50% of something is made of "A", then obviously, the rest must be made of something else, let's say "B"!!! OBVIOUSLY!!! But you said it all came from "A"

never did muhammad nor i ever say that everything in the world is made up of 100% water. you just assumed that. i did however say "A" is made up of water, meaning a majority of whatever it is is made up of water, you just assume i meant that it all came from "A", you and gplex twist words around so much its not even worth it to debate with you all because you think i say things i dont.

"...Not by the hand of Allah, or God or Picku-Piku... Well, unless that idea scares you senseless.... You're nothing if not predictable...."

and you think i stop responding because i cant? no its because your insulting... and i really dont have time for someone who ask me questions like "can you explain how the nuclear reactor in a US Aircraft carrier works? I mean, at the detailed level"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleGUY
Point is, suk-head (I can do that too...):

Fact: only the parts that are now water were made up of water. No magical atomic conversions going on, I assure you!

You claim that it's all so complex that it had to have been Allah. I pointed out, rather elegantly I'd say, that a "nuc" ship's power plant is also very complicated, and neither you nor I can explain it at all, in detail ( I probably far better than you because, after all, I am an engineer....). I'm sorry; my analogy was too much for you, or your available response time-frame.

But regardless, and back to my original point, again, did Allah design nuclear reactors and is now down in the bowels of every nuc ship, handling the fission reactions personally,? At the sub-atomic particle level? ("There: this little hydrogen atom goes here, and this one riiiigghttttt... THERE! Ooops; that one tries to get away., Darn you, little hydrogen atoms!")

Seriously this is the logical consequence of your thinking and statements, sukbrains (oops, but then, you started it. Mod, payback is fairplay!)
can you explain to me how birds developed hollow bones? no you cant, you just have point a and point b. but you have no idea how they got there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleBRAINIAC
Oh can't I? Try this uber-short version. In the long-term development and experimentation within any living species (and always ongoing in a transitional, trial and error world) the chance formation of a single, simple genome change that resulted in slightly less dense bone structure (the same known gross morphology genetic controls that allow and direct your finger to heal, BTW) easily led to a lighter animal, perhaps a pterodactyl-like proto-bird. They were already in the air, my boy. They didn't need the less-dense bones first.

Thus it was able to fly higher, or with less energy expenditure, or with faster in-flight responses to avoid it's natural predators (a sort of P-51D versus Messcherschmitt 109 aircraft comparo if you like; the old versus the cutting-edge... guess who wins out?), or it's ability to then carry heavier captured/killed prey up to it's nest to better support it's offspring...

Inevitably, even to your addled mind, this would create an OBVIOUS and CLEAR operational and existential advantage. This is blatantly obvious, unless one is daft or stubborn-headed. And, advantages to one's reproductive success and "fit" in the environment and available niche is, well, you know.... an advantage.

BTW, we also KNOW that these genetic mutations do occur; we even know how often, and how many are generally lethal, but how a slight few offer a distinct advantage. If they are truly chance, why wouldn't some of them be potentially positive? You guys always deny that possibility....

Get it. Not so hard, was it, sukko, old boy? Sit up and learn my man. It can be quite enlightening!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
For argument sake, lets assume no one in history figured out that life started in the ocean ( not that creatures are made from water, but creature are mostly water), then anyone in history that came up with an idea (Darwin, Einstein, Newton) that no one else had, MUST mean they were also were also in communication with god?
Quote:
Originally Posted by airgunman
Exactly! Inquisitive people come up with ideas all the time. Doesn't mean they invented them, but OK; they may have. So what? This also does not mean they are all-knowing, else Darwin is also a God. And interestingly, Allah completely missed that Evolution was occurring all around and even inside of him! He missed the obvious, and instead went right to pure MAGIC-BASED nonsense, like we're made of clots, blood, sperm, dust, water, etc.
The fact remains, this is not a new idea, when muhammad was born. In fact it had been around for over a thousand years.

rflmn: YUP!

Muhammad didn't mention atp, the kreb cycle, cell structure, the differences between eukaryotic, prokaryotic cells and viruses. The laws of gravity, relativity, galaxies, black holes, nuclear decay, fission in the heart of stars, the insignificance of earth compared to the universe and the fundamental theorems of modern mathematics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ammo-mutt
And why not? because back then, in the age of camel dung as fire fodder, he literally had no idea. Where, after all, was his Godly microscope? In his camel's side bag?

BTW, sukknowledgeman: please quick-like: define atp, the Kreb cycle, etc. You now so much... show us please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marissy View Post
Acting like you are stuck on stupid is not helping Islam in any way, shape, or form.
Worthy of a rep!

Then, RE: Allah being all-knowing way back when...


Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
This is not true.

There is not a single example of this anywhere in the Qur'an.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
So... Sukrill, which of these is correct, and which are wrong.

Man was created out of water:
Man was created from a clot:
Man was created from clay or mud:

Man was created from dust:
It seems that Allah either could not make up His mind, or He just didn't remember.
Well, HD, you do know what the effects on the mind are of continued dehydration out on the windswept desert, eating improperly identified 'shrooms, and having a bunch of illiterates always crowding around you expecting a constant flow of wise-ass statements, right? What this can do to the mind and ego, HD; staggering implications....

You just start, in the beginning, to over-reach a bit... and then later to assume you DO know it all... Especially when it gets the really young girls all excited (we now know, from objective studies taken from the American Idol show, that young girls have enormous political and cultural clout..)
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Old 06-30-2010, 05:59 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
LOL... of course there is a contradiction. There are several. Allah is all over the map on this one. Now, I knew you would try and pretend that most of it was just Allah committing sins of omission... (leaving out the water in some places, leaving out the dirt in others), but the funniest one is your attempt to gloss over the blood clot.

Yes, blood is "a mixture of cells and a watery liquid.?

But water is not. Neither is clay, mud, dust or mire.

If we allow you the egregious latitude to pretend that these "basically mean the same things" then we have rendered the Qur'an itself meaningless. It can then mean anything we want it too.


Nope. No dust, clay, mud or mire to be seen in that anywhere.

Thanks for playing.
we are talking about the verse that says how everything is made up of water... meaning clay, mud, blood, etc. it makes sense no matter how much you say it doesnt. twisting words around again. no surprise, i mean your not the only one who does it. rifleboy not only twist words around but is also extremely insulting. but its not upsetting, its all part of the fitna, and its already been written about people who will say things the way you do. but insha allah we will both be standing before allah one day and we'll see who's right then...
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Old 06-30-2010, 07:25 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,734,881 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukrill View Post
we are talking about the verse that says how everything is made up of water... meaning clay, mud, blood, etc. it makes sense no matter how much you say it doesnt. twisting words around again. no surprise, i mean your not the only one who does it. rifleboy not only twist words around but is also extremely insulting. but its not upsetting, its all part of the fitna, and its already been written about people who will say things the way you do. but insha allah we will both be standing before allah one day and we'll see who's right then...
We are talking about verse that claim divine revelation, but in fact he could have easily got from other sources..

Still he didn't come up with anything modern science has.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
Muhammad didn't mentions atp, the kerb cycle, cell structure, the differences between eukaryotic, prokaryotic cells and viruses. The laws of gravity, relativity, galaxies, black holes, nuclear decay, fission in the heart of stars, the insignificance of earth compared to the universe and the fundamental theorems of modern mathematics.
If he had written anything as detailed as these 3 book (over 3000 pages of useful knowledge), and revolutionized science I would have become a believer..


But instead muhammad gave us NOTHING that would help advance science. Exactly what you would have expected from a charlatan .
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Old 06-30-2010, 08:46 PM
 
397 posts, read 534,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
We are talking about verse that claim divine revelation, but in fact he could have easily got from other sources..

Still he didn't come up with anything modern science has.

If he had written anything as detailed as these 3 book (over 3000 pages of useful knowledge), and revolutionized science I would have become a believer..


But instead muhammad gave us NOTHING that would help advance science. Exactly what you would have expected from a charlatan .
yes this coming from the same guy that asked why god didnt tell muhammad about the internet... like i said before what was revealed to us is only what we needed to know. we didnt need to know about the internet, or why certain things work the way they do... its not necessary information to live a peaceful life...
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