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Old 07-01-2010, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Littleton, CO
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Islam and the Round Earth: A Refutation


The Basic Claim:


Islamic apologists attempt to claim that the shape of the earth is actually described by the Qur’an in one of many miraculous displays of scientific precocity in text. Here, in a representative example of the claim, the Turkish apologist Adnan Oktar (writing under the pseudonym Harun Yayha) tells us:
“‘He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night.’
(The Qur'an, 39:5)

In the Qur'an, the words used for describing the universe are quite remarkable. The Arabic word that is translated as "to wrap" in the above verse is "takwir". In English, it means "to make one thing lap over another, folded up as a garment that is laid away". (For instance, in Arabic dictionaries this word is used for the action of wrapping one thing around another, in the way that a turban is put on.)

The information given in the verse about the day and the night wrapping each other up includes accurate information about the shape of the world. This can be true only if the earth is round. This means that in the Qur'an, which was revealed in the 7th century, the roundness of the world was hinted at.

It should be remembered, however, that the understanding of astronomy of the time perceived the world differently. It was then thought that the world was a flat plane and all scientific calculations and explanations were based on this belief. The verses of the Qur'an, however, include information that we have learned only in the past century. Since the Qur'an is God's word, the most correct words were used in it when it comes to describing the universe.”


Looking a Little Deeper:


The first important point to consider is always the actual statements of the Qur’an, and whether they have been honestly presented. Oktar quotes the Qur’an as saying in 39:5, “He has created the Heavens and the Earth for Truth. He wraps the night up in the day, and wraps the day up in the night.”


Is that a fair translation of the aya in question?


In this case, he appears to be on fairly firm ground. According to the three most highly regarded English translations generally available, the translation is:


Al-Qur’an 039.005

YUSUFALI: He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?


PICKTHAL: He hath created the heavens and the earth with truth. He maketh night to succeed day, and He maketh day to succeed night, and He constraineth the sun and the moon to give service, each running on for an appointed term. Is not He the Mighty, the Forgiver?


SHAKIR: He has created the heavens and the earth with the truth; He makes the night cover the day and makes the day overtake the night, and He has made the sun and the moon subservient; each one runs on to an assigned term; now surely He is the Mighty, the great Forgiver.


So, if his translation appears to be in this case reliable, are the conclusions that he draws from them justified?


Well, let’s begin by considering this claim:


”The information given in the verse about the day and the night wrapping each other up includes accurate information about the shape of the world. This can be true only if the earth is round. This means that in the Qur'an, which was revealed in the 7th century, the roundness of the world was hinted at.”


Is this true?


No, it is not. Even Oktar admits that the relevant Arabic word "takwir" means "to make one thing lap over another, folded up as a garment that is laid away". A quick exploration of my closets and dresser drawers reveals MANY folded up and laid away garments. But not a single one of them is round, or wrapped around something that is round.


It is fairly common knowledge that any shaped object can be “wrapped.” There is not the slightest indication here that the authors of the Qur’an were saying anything about which of these shapes the Earth might be. And this is not only because any shape will do for wrapping.


For the verse doesn’t even say that the night and day wrap around the Earth at all. It says that night and day wrap around EACH OTHER.


Is Oktar claiming that the “night” is round because it is wrapped by “day?” Or is he claiming that the “day” is round because it is wrapped by the “night?” Of course not, for there would be no point to such silly contentions. Instead, Oktar makes a completely unrelated claim about the shape of the Earth, and hopes the reader won’t notice what the Qur’an actually said.


Other commentators actually claim this ayaa has a very different (but equally “scientific” meaning). They state that rather than a reflection of the roundness of the earth, it is a description of the rotation of the earth:


Submission.com
, for example provides us with this description:

Quote:
“The Spinning of the earth is also mentioned in the Quran:
Quote:


‘He (God) coils the night onto the day and coils the day onto the night’ 39:5

The use of the word "coils" was once thought to be a purely poetic one, but today's astronomical knowledge confirms that the word "coils" is scientificallly [sic] very accurate in describing the spinning movement of the earth.”
It goes without saying that a “coil” is a spiral shape, in which the “arms” of the coil become concentric. So, unless our Muslim friends are claiming that the rotation of the earth actually creates multiple concentric layers of day and night that we would pass through as we rose from the surface of the Earth, this is scientifically a very INaccurate description of both the Earth’s rotation and its effect on night and day.

Finally, the big question here is: Even if the Qur’an does say the world is round, so what?

By the time Muhammad was born, the fact that the Earth was round was common knowledge. Eratosthenes had even already measured the circumference of the Earth some 900 years before the Qur’an was “revealed.”
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Old 07-01-2010, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,372,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
Islam and the Round Earth: A Refutation


... the big question here is: Even if the Qur’an does say the world is round, so what?

By the time Muhammad was born, the fact that the Earth was round was common knowledge. Eratosthenes had even already measured the circumference of the Earth some 900 years before the Qur’an was “revealed.”
"But... but.... we were thinking of it being round long before the Greeks, and that's what counts! Allah be praised for his omniscience!"

I'm wondering when they will announce the long-held secrets of time-space warp travel. At this, Allah will suddenly appear from his universe-spanning travels....
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Old 07-01-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: The Milky Way Galaxy
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takes out the popcorn...munch...munch
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Old 07-02-2010, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
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Wink Lika Deessss?

You mean...

.................................................. .......
...or...

.................................................. .

??
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Old 07-03-2010, 02:33 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,146 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post

It is fairly common knowledge that any shaped object can be “wrapped.” There is not the slightest indication here that the authors of the Qur’an were saying anything about which of these shapes the Earth might be. And this is not only because any shape will do for wrapping.
i agree with you that any object can be wrapped
the point here is about the arabic word which used to describe the shape of the object being wrapped
the verb "kawwara" refers to the shape of ball
"kora" is arabic word which means ball
the verb of it is "kawwara" which means shape somthing to ball shape
in the contxt of the verses it says theat God encircles [Yokawer] the night over the day and encircles the day over the night, which for the Arabic readers donates spherical celestial bodies and movements, since the root word of the verb Yokawer simply mean "ball."


Quote:
Other commentators actually claim this ayaa has a very different (but equally “scientific” meaning). They state that rather than a reflection of the roundness of the earth, it is a description of the rotation of the earth:
don't confuse yourself , i can give you another verses which directly refer to roundness of the earth , and another verses which directly refer to it's rotation

the verse descibe this view

whatever , using the word kawar refer to shape of earth , and using it by verb referes to continous encircle for the day and night (which mean continous motion )

i can't imagine encircling for day and night can happens if the earth not moving around itself
Quote:
Finally, the big question here is: Even if the Qur’an does say the world is round, so what?


By the time Muhammad was born, the fact that the Earth was round was common knowledge. Eratosthenes had even already measured the circumference of the Earth some 900 years before the Qur’an was “revealed.”
it will means that mohammed (pbuh) was very lucky to choose only the correct theories and insert it in quran then says that it's God's word then challange the world by this book then he wins the challange every time even if it was 1500 years later
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Old 07-03-2010, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,056 posts, read 30,529,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
mohammed (pbuh) was very lucky to choose only the correct theories and insert it in quran then says that it's God's word then challange the world by this book then he wins the challange every time even if it was 1500 years later
I'm fascinated to know how Mohammed dealt with such a variety of theories. Isn't it a matter of historical record that he was illiterate? The Quran may be ascribed to him, but it's very doubtful that he actually wrote it.
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Old 07-03-2010, 06:25 AM
 
Location: egypt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
I'm fascinated to know how Mohammed dealt with such a variety of theories. Isn't it a matter of historical record that he was illiterate? The Quran may be ascribed to him, but it's very doubtful that he actually wrote it.
yes , historically he was illiterate , and historically he lived in evironment have no interest on science and historically he hadn't multilanguage experts and historically he never claimed that quran is his words .

afterall , you asked the questions which every honest researcher shoud to seek naswers for it
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Old 07-03-2010, 11:09 AM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,186,009 times
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I'm still amazed that plagiarized regurgitation of known facts could ever be seen as miraculous.

That goes for the Quran as well as the Bible.
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Old 07-03-2010, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Not yet
251 posts, read 373,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
i agree with you that any object can be wrapped
the point here is about the arabic word which used to describe the shape of the object being wrapped
the verb "kawwara" refers to the shape of ball
"kora" is arabic word which means ball
the verb of it is "kawwara" which means shape somthing to ball shape
in the contxt of the verses it says theat God encircles [Yokawer] the night over the day and encircles the day over the night, which for the Arabic readers donates spherical celestial bodies and movements, since the root word of the verb Yokawer simply mean "ball."



don't confuse yourself , i can give you another verses which directly refer to roundness of the earth , and another verses which directly refer to it's rotation

the verse descibe this view

whatever , using the word kawar refer to shape of earth , and using it by verb referes to continous encircle for the day and night (which mean continous motion )

i can't imagine encircling for day and night can happens if the earth not moving around itself


it will means that mohammed (pbuh) was very lucky to choose only the correct theories and insert it in quran then says that it's God's word then challange the world by this book then he wins the challange every time even if it was 1500 years later





Great
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Old 07-03-2010, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,372,762 times
Reputation: 3735
Default Contradictory!

Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
yes , historically he was illiterate , and historically he lived in evironment have no interest on science and historically he hadn't multilanguage experts and historically he never claimed that quran is his words .

afterall , you asked the questions which every honest researcher shoud to seek answers for it
So... elwill, I'm confused by your post. You agree he was illiterate and probably had no direct knowledge of the "great scientific discoveries" or information attributed to him in the Qu'Ran? That we're right to question his authority and knowledge?

Huh?
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