U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-22-2010, 07:14 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 32,107,223 times
Reputation: 14896

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by rayneinspain View Post
I will not define it for you, just so you can walk all over it with your own version.
That is the nature of a discussion. You present your understanding of a term or concept and other has the right to rebut it. Frankly, having read the proffered links and the looking for additional source material, any discussion of al-Taqiyya, or the Quran much less the intricacies of the Hadith requires as much in depth knowledge as would be required to fully understand the Bible or the halakha all three of which religious scholars spend a life time researching. So, I doubt very seriously based upon what I've read on this thread so far that you have a clue as to what you are talking about. Which I suppose, is about as good enough of a reason to duck the question as any.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-22-2010, 07:32 PM
 
5,906 posts, read 5,187,270 times
Reputation: 4536
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
That is the nature of a discussion. You present your understanding of a term or concept and other has the right to rebut it. Frankly, having read the proffered links and the looking for additional source material, any discussion of al-Taqiyya, or the Quran much less the intricacies of the Hadith requires as much in depth knowledge as would be required to fully understand the Bible or the halakha all three of which religious scholars spend a life time researching. So, I doubt very seriously based upon what I've read on this thread so far that you have a clue as to what you are talking about. Which I suppose, is about as good enough of a reason to duck the question as any.
No, I'm not going to get into an argument with you, either. The subject of taqiyya has been brought up numerous times in the past 8 months or so on this board. I have read about it. I've experienced it on this board firsthand, too.

Expert? No. Entitled to an opinion? Yes, same as you.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-22-2010, 08:15 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,856 posts, read 22,976,124 times
Reputation: 6684
Quote:
Originally Posted by imanway View Post
As I say every time is just propaganda of anti-islam no more


taqiyya or kitman = There is nothing in Islam called taqiyya it is Belief only at the Shiites rejected in Islam Islam does not need to taqiyya
Respectfully I think most people consider Shiites to be Muslims. Maybe you've mutually excommunicated/takfir each other, but I think Shiites are recognized as Muslims in many Sunni Muslim nations.

I do agree though that is wrong to claim "taqiyya" is a general or common Muslim practice. I think even among Shiites Taqiyya is mostly limited to times of religious persecution. So under Saddam maybe some Shiites practiced Taqiyya as he at times persecuted Shiites as being potentially pro-Iran.

However the USA allows the free practice of Shiite Islam, or at least does so far as I know, so I don't think there would be legitimate reasons for Taqiyya.

There are terrorist groups, even Sunni ones, that practice Taqiyya for nefarious reasons and I wonder if this may descend from some ideas of the Assassins who evolved into the fairly moderate modern Ismailis. However most Muslims are not members of terrorist organizations.

The OP was clearly confused, or possibly just hyperbolic, but sadly many people just went for it because Islam is an explosive issue right now. Also it's easier to think of Islam as some big monolith, which in a way you're doing too as you seem to not accept Shiites as Muslims.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-22-2010, 08:35 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,883 posts, read 31,776,624 times
Reputation: 12629
To better understand Islam, one must appreciate the thoroughly legalistic nature of the religion. According to sharia (Islamic law) every conceivable human act is categorised as being either forbidden, discouraged, permissible, recommended, or obligatory.

“Common sense” or “universal opinion” has little to do with Islam’s notions of right and wrong. Only what Allah (through the Quran) and his prophet Muhammad (through the Hadith) have to say about any given issue matters.

According to sharia, in certain situations, deception – also known as ‘taqiyya’, based on Quranic terminology, – is not only permitted but sometimes obligatory.

As a doctrine, taqiyya was first codified by Shia Muslims, primarily as a result of their historical experience. After the internal Islamic Fitna wars from the years 656 AD to 661 AD, however, the Shia became a minority branch, persecuted by mainstream Muslims or Sunnis – so-called because they follow the example or ‘sunna’ of Muhammad and his companions. Taqiyya became pivotal to Shia survival.

Interspersed among the much more numerous Sunnis, who currently make up approximately 90 per cent of the Islamic world, the Shia often performed taqiyya by pretending to be Sunnis externally, while maintaining Shia beliefs internally, as permitted by Quranic verse 16:106. Even today, especially in those Muslim states where there is little religious freedom, the Shia still practice taqiyya. In Saudi Arabia, for instance, Shias are deemed by many of the Sunni majority to be heretics, traitors and infidels and like other non-Sunni Muslims they are often persecuted. Several of Saudi Arabia’s highest clerics have even issued fatwas sanctioning the killing of Shias.

Paradoxically, however, today many Sunnis are finding themselves in the Shias’ place: living as minorities in Western countries surrounded and governed by their traditional foes. According to the authoritative Arabic text, Al-Taqiyya Fi Al-Islam: “Taqiyya [deception] is of fundamental importance in Islam. Practically every Islamic sect agrees to it and practices it.

The primary Quranic verse sanctioning deception with respect to non-Muslims states: “Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah – unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions.” (Quran 3:28; see also 2:173; 2:185; 4:29; 22:78; 40:28.)

Islam’s doctrines of deception (Raymond Ibrahim on taqiyya) « Creeping Sharia
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-22-2010, 08:59 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,856 posts, read 22,976,124 times
Reputation: 6684
I've taken about a year of classes on Islam/Radical Islam from a guy who lived in Mali, wrote a paper on it, and have several books on Islamic teaching. Still I haven't lived in Muslim nations so maybe you know better. What Muslim nation did you, sanspeur, live in again?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-22-2010, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,883 posts, read 31,776,624 times
Reputation: 12629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I've taken about a year of classes on Islam/Radical Islam from a guy who lived in Mali, wrote a paper on it, and have several books on Islamic teaching. Still I haven't lived in Muslim nations so maybe you know better. What Muslim nation did you, sanspeur, live in again?
Why would you think that I have lived in a Muslim nation? I have not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-22-2010, 09:48 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,856 posts, read 22,976,124 times
Reputation: 6684
Because you indicate you know so much about it, but mostly because I was being a smart-aleck and figured you hadn't

To give a more serious response I'm basically just questioning your knowledge on this. Do you actually know Muslims and have studied Islamic writing or are you just going on things you saw on websites?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-22-2010, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,883 posts, read 31,776,624 times
Reputation: 12629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Because you indicate you know so much about it, but mostly because I was being a smart-aleck and figured you hadn't

To give a more serious response I'm basically just questioning your knowledge on this. Do you actually know Muslims and have studied Islamic writing or are you just going on things you saw on websites?
I'm afraid after the research I've done I wouldn't believe anything a Muslim told me anyway.


YouTube - Taqiyya -Lying in Islam
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-23-2010, 01:04 AM
 
4,454 posts, read 5,746,770 times
Reputation: 2186
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Why would you think that I have lived in a Muslim nation? I have not.
I think I would trust more sources from the very people that have lived in muslim nations, or spent an great deal of time with muslims or have been an muslim or an muslim rather than someone posting links here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-23-2010, 01:08 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,883 posts, read 31,776,624 times
Reputation: 12629
Quote:
Originally Posted by other99 View Post
I think I would trust more sources from the very people that have lived in muslim nations, or spent an great deal of time with muslims or have been an muslim or an muslim rather than someone posting links here.
What do you think the links and videos are? They are former Muslims...I'm not an expert, but they are. You must not have even checked them out, did you?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Islam
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top