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Old 07-23-2010, 01:44 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,973,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I'm afraid after the research I've done I wouldn't believe anything a Muslim told me anyway.
See I understand that, but it's pretty problematic. I mean I have a similar view on Scientologists, but I might begrudgingly recognize this means I'm just biased. Or at least it means that it's hard to credit what I'd say as I'm not willing to fairly listen to both sides of the issue.

Granted with Islam it's more complicated because Islam has more varied schools and sects than Scientology. The main schism I know in Scientology is the "Free Zone" group and I actually might be willing to listen to one of them if the opportunity presented itself. I'm certainly not meaning I'd convert to their crazy religion, although I think "Free Zone" is more of a dissident Dianetics-oriented group than an organized faith, but I might be willing to believe a Free Zoner could be honest about how they live.

So long story short you're just being biased/bigoted as I am to Scientology and maybe also to a few other New Religions.
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Old 07-23-2010, 02:14 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,881 posts, read 31,773,106 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
See I understand that, but it's pretty problematic. I mean I have a similar view on Scientologists, but I might begrudgingly recognize this means I'm just biased. Or at least it means that it's hard to credit what I'd say as I'm not willing to fairly listen to both sides of the issue.

Granted with Islam it's more complicated because Islam has more varied schools and sects than Scientology. The main schism I know in Scientology is the "Free Zone" group and I actually might be willing to listen to one of them if the opportunity presented itself. I'm certainly not meaning I'd convert to their crazy religion, although I think "Free Zone" is more of a dissident Dianetics-oriented group than an organized faith, but I might be willing to believe a Free Zoner could be honest about how they live.

So long story short you're just being biased/bigoted as I am to Scientology and maybe also to a few other New Religions.
I realize not all Muslims are radicals, but with the practice of taqiyya how can you tell which are telling the truth? I have seen undercover videos taken in Mosques of so called moderate Muslims....In public they preach moderation and peace, and say they respect others beliefs, but in the Mosque when they think they are out of the public eye they preach hatred.

I'm sure they are not all the same, but if you want to say I'm bigoted or biased against the fanatical faction of Islam, so be it.

Not all scorpions will sting you, but I do not trust them and leave them all alone because I cannot tell which one will sting and which ones won't. ...I guess you could say that I'm bigoted about scorpions too.
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Old 07-23-2010, 05:24 AM
 
Location: Not yet
251 posts, read 373,687 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Why would you think that I have lived in a Muslim nation? I have not.


sanspeur,

I am fully know that you Did not live with the Muslim nation So, If you lived with a Muslim nation will change your mind ,all of these intimidating propaganda of Islam you will not find with Muslims..

You only have a vague dislike or fear Gained from a focus on the sources that show Muslims badly ,try looking and focused on Judaism and Christianity will find the result like what find in the sources that show Muslims badly ...

It just depends on your focus ,What you focus on you will get it ..

Want to focus on the bad and convinced them you are free ..

The Islamic nation is not as you imagine simpler than you think , better than you think...


What if you had bad experiences with Muslims?

If it was so I personally have bad experiences with some of the Jews

Always bad words I found them.. a clear dislike for Muslims So, I can exploited on All the Jews if I want?
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Old 07-23-2010, 05:29 AM
 
Location: Not yet
251 posts, read 373,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
See I understand that, but it's pretty problematic. I mean I have a similar view on Scientologists, but I might begrudgingly recognize this means I'm just biased. Or at least it means that it's hard to credit what I'd say as I'm not willing to fairly listen to both sides of the issue.

Granted with Islam it's more complicated because Islam has more varied schools and sects than Scientology. The main schism I know in Scientology is the "Free Zone" group and I actually might be willing to listen to one of them if the opportunity presented itself. I'm certainly not meaning I'd convert to their crazy religion, although I think "Free Zone" is more of a dissident Dianetics-oriented group than an organized faith, but I might be willing to believe a Free Zoner could be honest about how they live.

So long story short you're just being biased/bigoted as I am to Scientology and maybe also to a few other New Religions.

how do you say our religion be crazy ? So Is Christianity also crazy ?
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Old 07-23-2010, 06:23 AM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,973,253 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imanway View Post
how do you say our religion be crazy ? So Is Christianity also crazy ?
You misread, I was referring to a Scientology group there. I was saying his bias against Islam is perhaps like my bias to any form of Scientology.
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Old 07-23-2010, 07:48 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 2,039,509 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by other99 View Post
I think I would trust more sources from the very people that have lived in muslim nations, or spent an great deal of time with muslims or have been an muslim or an muslim rather than someone posting links here.
then let me honestly describe for you the situation , i'm a muslims and lives in muslims countries , so i guess may be you will trust me


nonmuslims are guilty of intentionally distorting what the prophet Muhammad really said, since when we look at what the prophet said, it is nothing near the claims they are making.
Sahih MuslimBook 032, Number 6303:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).
So as you can see, Muslims are allowed to only lie during battle, essentially in war. Muslims are allowed to lie in order to bring peace between two people, and also when a wife and husband are fighting with each other and they lie to bring about an end to their problems.

As you can see, there is nothing wrong or extreme about that now is there? During war, many people will lie; this is how war is, if an enemy comes to you asking you where you're other soldiers are, would you tell him? Off course not, and if you were forced into giving the enemy army some information, you would give him false information. This is something very common during wars, and is practiced by every single army and every practicing soldier yet no one says they are commiting a crime or something bad! How ironic American Marines who kill, rape, and bomb innocent Iraqis are hailed as heroes by many in the west yet they have a problem with a command from the Prophet Muhammad allowing people to lie in war!

Also How more ironic it is, that people have no problems with the CIA and US military being taught on how to give false information to enemies during war, and see it as something very normal and okay, yet when Islam permits the same type of action, they goes all crazy shouting out evil! Such double standards simply reflect the low character of such people .
Any sane rational person would lie during war to save yourself, or your comrades, and only a fool would say this is something wrong.

The second circumstance, in which a person is allowed to lie, is when you want to bring peace between 2 people. Again, does this seem like something evil? If two of your best friends were fighting, and the only way to bring a peace between both of them was to make something up, would you not do it? Off course you would, and many of you have done so.

This is something very normal, and logical, and this is something any person would do. Your intention is not to cause problems; rather your intention is to cause good and peace, only a fool would argue saying to lie to make peace is bad. If a lie could bring peace and end war, or blood-shed, or violence, would you not lie to end it and bring the peace? Only an idiot would say no.

The third circumstance of when it's permissible to lie is when you are trying to fix things up between your wife or husband. Again, is this something wrong or evil? The majority of married people have lied to each other to fix things up, and this is a FACT, yet no one has a problem with it or cries out evil! Yet when Islam allows such a rational act, the nonmuslims go mad. Remember, the intention of this is something good, not to bring evil, you are doing this to fix your marriage, and to reconcile things, you are not doing this to do bad things.

Now it must be said, Muslims cannot use this hadith to always lie to their husbands and wives intentionally, no, it is only when your intention is to really fix things up, then you can commit the lie. You cannot commit the lie to simply help yourself, and then go back to doing bad things, and lie again, and play around. This is not how it goes.


So in conclusion, anti-islam people should stop claiming that Muslims are allowed to lie for fun or whenever they feel like, that is something false and is an intentional lie and a distortion of the facts. Muslims are only allowed to lie under 3 specific circumstances, and as you can see, it is something very natural to lie in these 3 specific circumstances, and it must be done with a good intention, to save your life or the life of your fellow soldiers and army.
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Old 07-23-2010, 08:00 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,733,198 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by elwill View Post
then let me honestly describe for you the situation , i'm a muslims and lives in muslims countries , so i guess may be you will trust me


nonmuslims are guilty of intentionally distorting what the prophet Muhammad really said, since when we look at what the prophet said, it is nothing near the claims they are making.
Sahih MuslimBook 032, Number 6303:

Humaid b. 'Abd al-Rahman b. 'Auf reported that his mother Umm Kulthum daughter of 'Uqba b. Abu Mu'ait, and she was one amongst the first emigrants who pledged allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), as saying that she heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them).
So as you can see, Muslims are allowed to only lie during battle, essentially in war. Muslims are allowed to lie in order to bring peace between two people, and also when a wife and husband are fighting with each other and they lie to bring about an end to their problems.

As you can see, there is nothing wrong or extreme about that now is there? During war, many people will lie; this is how war is, if an enemy comes to you asking you where you're other soldiers are, would you tell him? Off course not, and if you were forced into giving the enemy army some information, you would give him false information. This is something very common during wars, and is practiced by every single army and every practicing soldier yet no one says they are commiting a crime or something bad! How ironic American Marines who kill, rape, and bomb innocent Iraqis are hailed as heroes by many in the west yet they have a problem with a command from the Prophet Muhammad allowing people to lie in war!

Also How more ironic it is, that people have no problems with the CIA and US military being taught on how to give false information to enemies during war, and see it as something very normal and okay, yet when Islam permits the same type of action, they goes all crazy shouting out evil! Such double standards simply reflect the low character of such people .
Any sane rational person would lie during war to save yourself, or your comrades, and only a fool would say this is something wrong.

The second circumstance, in which a person is allowed to lie, is when you want to bring peace between 2 people. Again, does this seem like something evil? If two of your best friends were fighting, and the only way to bring a peace between both of them was to make something up, would you not do it? Off course you would, and many of you have done so.

This is something very normal, and logical, and this is something any person would do. Your intention is not to cause problems; rather your intention is to cause good and peace, only a fool would argue saying to lie to make peace is bad. If a lie could bring peace and end war, or blood-shed, or violence, would you not lie to end it and bring the peace? Only an idiot would say no.

The third circumstance of when it's permissible to lie is when you are trying to fix things up between your wife or husband. Again, is this something wrong or evil? The majority of married people have lied to each other to fix things up, and this is a FACT, yet no one has a problem with it or cries out evil! Yet when Islam allows such a rational act, the nonmuslims go mad. Remember, the intention of this is something good, not to bring evil, you are doing this to fix your marriage, and to reconcile things, you are not doing this to do bad things.

Now it must be said, Muslims cannot use this hadith to always lie to their husbands and wives intentionally, no, it is only when your intention is to really fix things up, then you can commit the lie. You cannot commit the lie to simply help yourself, and then go back to doing bad things, and lie again, and play around. This is not how it goes.


So in conclusion, anti-islam people should stop claiming that Muslims are allowed to lie for fun or whenever they feel like, that is something false and is an intentional lie and a distortion of the facts. Muslims are only allowed to lie under 3 specific circumstances, and as you can see, it is something very natural to lie in these 3 specific circumstances, and it must be done with a good intention, to save your life or the life of your fellow soldiers and army.
more lies..
quran 3:28
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Not yet
251 posts, read 373,687 times
Reputation: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
You misread, I was referring to a Scientology group there. I was saying his bias against Islam is perhaps like my bias to any form of Scientology.

Oh may I was misread


OK. sorry.


YES. sanspeur, Only be a fanatical against Islam
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,814 posts, read 19,910,927 times
Reputation: 23221
imanway....does Ayaan Hirsi Ali and others like her lie?
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Not yet
251 posts, read 373,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
more lies..
quran 3:28
YUSUFALI: Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.
PICKTHAL: Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them, taking (as it were) security. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying.
SHAKIR: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.


but more Ignorance of you about Islam.


A lie to claim that the Qur'an is forbade the Muslims to be friends with non-Muslims ..

Now this is the problem with most of the verses. You see, most unfortunately most of the English translators of the Quran translated the word awliyaa as "friends". However, the word friend in Arabic does not always necessarily mean wali. It could also mean protector..

See http://www.ectaco.co.uk/main.jsp?do=...urce=protector



The Qur'an does not say that non-Muslims cannot be Muslims' friends, nor does it forbid Muslims to be friendly to non-Muslims. There are many non-Muslims who are good friends of Muslim individuals and the Muslim community. There are also many good Muslims who truly and sincerely observe their faith and are very friendly to many non-Muslims at the same time.
Islam teaches us that we should be friendly to all people. Islam teaches us that we should deal even with our enemies with justice and fairness. Allah says in the Qur'an in the beginning of the same Surat Al-Madah: [O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do.] (Al-Madah 5 :8)



In another place in the Qur'an, Allah Almighty says:

[Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)



There are Muslim extremists who claim that there are no common grounds between us and Christians and Jews, but this is a wrong perception of the Islamic viewpoint. Otherwise, why would Allah allow us to marry Christians and Jews? Why were the early Muslims sad when the Persians defeated the Romans-the former were magus (worshippers of fire) while the latter were Christians?

Later on Allah revealed in the Quran a verse that gave the Muslims glad tiding that the Romans would gain victory in the near future and that victory would be a source of happiness for them. Allah Almighty says: [ Within ten years Allah's is the command in the former case and in the latter and in that day believers will rejoice‏. In Allah's help to victory. He helpeth to victory whom He will. He is the Mighty, the Merciful.‏] (Ar-Room 30: 2-4)

This shows that Christians and Jews, despite being non-believers of Prophet Muhammad's message to humanity, are yet closer to Muslims than others who are idol worshippers.

http://www.answering-christianity.co...ri/friends.htm
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