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Old 08-12-2010, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzschean Gangsta View Post
The Qur'an says no such thing. If you think that it does, tell me where.
9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
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Old 08-12-2010, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
180 posts, read 189,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
I think that is it ,but the one i saw had a different translation.

also


2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

2:244 Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:15 PM
 
Location: part of the Matrix--for now!
1,030 posts, read 1,180,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
This is disengenuous, it's not possible to draw a conclusion from just this simple verse, what does the rest of the section say? There is more to it than what you have written down. Please include the verses before and after this verse if you want a honest discussion as to what it means.
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Old 08-12-2010, 10:17 PM
 
Location: part of the Matrix--for now!
1,030 posts, read 1,180,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boogieman View Post
I think that is it ,but the one i saw had a different translation.

also


2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

2:244 Fight in the way of Allah, and know that Allah is Hearer, Knower.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.
None of these verses support your position. Try again.
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Old 08-14-2010, 07:02 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,440,735 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2M2 View Post
I am honestly too , I am imanway, my membership is closed

I was talked about islam honestly , Muslims when they are commit their

religion Does not mean they are not moderated , I am honestly curious,

Where is the problem in commitment my religion! ...

I found the cited by verses in the Koran here Unfortunately, without the knowledge and understanding for them ..


all Fighting's verses in Quran are Defense when God allowed, the Prophet peace be upon him to fight the infidels who fight them and beat them for many years...

I've said this in the forum more than once, Nothing in the Koran calls for any attack on infidels how is that!! and allah Forbids to injustice and abuse The human psyche and even animal ...


Without a doubt, millions and millions of Muslim Arabs and Westerners who have denounced the attacks on innocent infidels Whether they were the Governor or preachers or members I previously have put here many links to the condemnation of the Islamic ...


I do not know How does a non-Muslim can imagine that Islam calls for kill him/her...!!!!


Each religion has its law ,Jewish has its law ,Christianity has its law as we are , have our law

I do not know when we can run the discussion without intolerance or bias or even without Hate or racism are not justified at the someones??


imanway
Imanway,

Non muslims can imagine that muslims don't like us, or the west and want to kill us because we see that more then we see an Islam that wants to co-exist.

That may be wrong but that is what we see.

Over and over Muslims here have equated all Jews with zionism. Not all Jews are always supportive of what Israel does. We Jews are about as diverse as we can be and we all don't think alike. I am a human being not a monkey or an ape. I don't deserve to be killed because I am a Jew.

As to many of the muslim posters here there was not a discussion there were endless ayats and not much real talk.

To sharia most the muslims support it. For most of us given what we know about sharia it was mind boggling how anyone could support it. Maybe its what we see in our media and what muslims over seas see in theirs. But there is a Time magazine on the stands here now with an Afghan girl with her nose missing because she dared to run away from her family. It is horrifying to me.

I have no problems with others and different religions if they let me live in peace and I don't have to fear.

There is nothing wrong with being committed to your religion. There is always something wrong with not being able to honestly look at it. Every religion has good and bad.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,544,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
that is true but like the jews you only become a moderate when you actively resist the extremists.
that is not happening in the muslim community.
There seem to be some moderate Muslims who do interpret the Koran differently.

This is a problem for me, because I am wondering if Moderate means the same in Islam as it does to Christians and Jews? I know Jews who eat pork: I know Xtians and Jews who will fight for equal rights for women and blacks and gays. They think it's horrible that the bible tolerates slavery. There are people of both these faiths, when asked, will say this-and-that are wrong in the bible: they will point to instances where god was violent and even condemn him for it. They say the biblical prescription for disobedient children is a horror and no one should do that.

How many moderate Muslims have I met who criticize the Koran in that way? No, I think perhaps the moderate Muslim is more like the fundamentalist Christian, who takes the holy book at face value and says it's precepts should all be followed. They may differ with others of the same degree of faith in interpretation, but not in the ultimate authority of the book.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:43 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzschean Gangsta View Post
Islam is a religion of moderation, therefore it is comprised of many different degrees. It is the western mindset that attempts to impose upon Islam the notions of "Black or White," "this or that." But in reality, there are differences of degree not of kind.

But there has come into Islam a Conservative interpretation of the religion. The conservative mindset imposes itself upon the Muslim world and therefore dominates it largely because it has the most economic and political power.
Yes. This is why Islam should not be treated as a religion in the West. It is a total system of life. It is an alien way of governing. It, in a democracy, would be a government within a government and when a democracy differs and says 'you must live by our laws if you wish to stay here', it complains of religious persecution.

Some might say it can be an alien governing system that hides under the cloak of religion.

This is the very reason why Australia and Holland and other countries have instituted a loyalty oath before granting citizenship. You cannot live in these countries without putting its laws first. You cannot change the democratic laws of a community even if you become the majority.

There was a poll taken of Muslims the world over. The vast majority, the world over, would rather live under Sharia than in a democracy. If this is true, then the West better be warned.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladyvictoria View Post
Problem with premise of your question is that it totally ignores the cultural differences among followers of Islam. We are not one nation or one culture and we don't share the same history. I grew up in Turkey which is probably one of the most secular nations in the world (please note, the World, not the Islamic world). It has no state religion or sharia law. Women gained right to vote in 1933 (earlier than most European countries) and we have one of the most progressive family laws in the world. So when someone comes up to me and says how come moderates don't condemn terrorism, I get insanely mad. I have absolutely nothing in common with those people who run around blowing themselves up and calling themselves Muslims. Regardless of what they say, we are not following the same religion. So while I condemn any type of terrorism because it is a crime against humanity, it has nothing to do with my religion. While I agree Islam needs to become more tolerant in some countries, you can't ignore the fact that there are serious historical and political problems associated with certain countries who breed these inhuman monsters. Islam is a vehicle not the cause and like most belief based systems, it is open to abuse. But one can't really have an intelligent conversation about this because most people in this country are extremely ignorant. If you open up and read the Koran, you'll see that stories told in it are exactly the same stories you will find in the Old Testament and the Bible. These are all Abrahamic religions Ė they are all based on same historical figures. If you think Islam is violent, than you should also accept the premise that so is Christianity and Judaism. We are not as different as you think we are. I also agree most Muslims try to keep to themselves. Being a Turk, my family looks very "white America" and I donít cover. Still I am scared my 4 year old will let it slip in school that we are Muslims. I am worried and scared for him. I don't want him hated for what he believes because the hate breeds more hate. Sorry for the long post. I normally never post in religious posts because I just can't deal with so much hate and ignorance coming from BOTH sides. I have a child to raise and life to live and just want to be left alone.
Maybe if your kids went to school and told others that the Koran is often wrong just as the Bible is, people would have a better understanding that there really are moderates.

Thanks for posting.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unseengundam View Post
I am non-religious person who has a Muslim background. In fact, I constantly hang around other Muslim like mine mother. I would about 80% of people I do hang out with are what you call moderate Muslim. They to tend to follow certain Islamic rules, but not all the time. Most of them don't pray 5 times a day or hardly ever. Also alot of them hardly ever go Mosque, maybe show up 2 times a year for Eid. Most of them don't go around trying convert others or start bad naming America all the time.

Now that being said there 20% or so very religious Muslim, so I personally try to avoid. They usually off critizing everything about USA most of time and out convert people to right religion (Islam). They seem to more concerned about Muslim across the world instead to worry about USA, the country the live in. I really don't bother arguing with them, I think is hopeless. Which is why I avoid them like the plague!!!
May I ask which countries these moderates who you know come from? They sound very sane.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,408 posts, read 16,544,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nietzschean Gangsta View Post
The Qur'an says no such thing. If you think that it does, tell me where.
It most certainly does say that. In many places. I looked it up and know to my satisfaction. If you want to know, just look for yourself.

It also says a Muslim can lie to further the cause of Islam.

So you can understand that people are concerned. Especially when people who do read the Koran seem to deny the violent passages.
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