Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I agree that the Koran and the Bible are closely related. Both have hideous passages as well as 'nice' ones. And Turkey has been a very secular nation, but I have heard that it is changing. I hope it isn't; I have admired its secular nature.
Thank god I'm an atheist. But best of luck to you.
I am non-religious person who has a Muslim background. In fact, I constantly hang around other Muslim like mine mother. I would about 80% of people I do hang out with are what you call moderate Muslim. They to tend to follow certain Islamic rules, but not all the time. Most of them don't pray 5 times a day or hardly ever. Also alot of them hardly ever go Mosque, maybe show up 2 times a year for Eid. Most of them don't go around trying convert others or start bad naming America all the time.
Now that being said there 20% or so very religious Muslim, so I personally try to avoid. They usually off critizing everything about USA most of time and out convert people to right religion (Islam). They seem to more concerned about Muslim across the world instead to worry about USA, the country the live in. I really don't bother arguing with them, I think is hopeless. Which is why I avoid them like the plague!!!
Hey guys let's see how much ignorance we can pile into one thread! Oh, you win!
Actually my hope for this thread was that we would hear some voices of Muslims who like Jews and Christians can be moderate.
Muslims, Christians and Jews all have a conservative/orthodox side that is take it straight from the book and no deviations, but there is a moderate side of each that doesn't see things in black and white and can live in co-existance with others.
We just don't see it here much because the Muslims who have been the most active are those who cut and paste ayats and spew hatred.
No, that's not in the Quran I'm afraid. The passages about war and such generally refer to self-defense and not aggression. And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you but do not commit aggression, for verily, God does not love aggressors. but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [willfully] do wrong" (2:193). "But if they [the enemy] incline to peace, incline thou to it as well, and place thy trust in God: verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! And should they seek but to deceive thee [by their show of peace] - behold, God is enough for thee! He it is who has strengthened thee with His succour, and by giving thee believing followers" (8:61-62).
"Disavowal by God and His Apostle [is herewith announced] unto those who ascribe divinity (i.e., pagans) to aught beside God, [and] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant. [Announce unto them:] 'Go, then, [freely] about the earth for four months, but know that you can never elude God, and that, verily, God shall bring disgrace upon all who refuse to acknowledge the truth!' And a proclamation from God and His Apostle [is herewith made] unto all mankind on this day of the Greatest Pilgrimage: 'God disavows all who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, and [so does] His Apostle. Hence, if you repent, it shall be for your own good; and if you turn away, then know that you can never elude God!' And unto those who are bent on denying the truth give thou [O Prophet] the tiding of grievous chastisement."
Seems like it agrees with you doesn't it? Except for the fact it refers to hostile tribes breaking treaties of their own with the Muslims during the founding years of Islam.
"But excepted shall be, from among those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God, [people] with whom you [O believers] have made a covenant and who thereafter have in no wise failed to fulfill their obligations towards you, and neither have aided anyone against you: observe, then, your covenant with them until the end of the term agreed with them. Verily, God loves those who are conscious of Him ." (9:4)
Ooh looks like the only ones subject to this voiding of treaties are ones who have themselves first broken the treaty and not the "infidels" who keep their word.
"And so, when the sacred months are over, slay those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God wherever you may come upon them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and lie in wait of them at every conceivable place. Yet if they repent, and take to prayer, and render the purifying dues, let them go their way: for, behold, God is Much-Forgiving, a Dispenser of Grace ." (9:5)
It is clear, therefore, that this verse is one of self-defense. The Muslims here are commanded to "slay the pagans" who are hostile towards them. It is not a carte blanche to "kill all infidels." This verse is specific to a specific time, and it is not understood by the overwhelming majority of Muslims to be a general call for murder against all those who are not Muslim.
And if any of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside God (i.e., the pagans) seeks thy protection, grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure: this, because they [may be] people who [sin only because they] do not know [the truth]. " (9:6)
If verse 9:5 is a open exhortation for the murder of all non-Muslims, then why would the Qur'an immediately tell the Muslims to grant a pagan protection to hear the word of God and then let him go to a place of safety?
"Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged and, verily, God has indeed the power to succour them: those who have been driven from their homelands against all right for no other reason than their saying, 'Our Sustainer is God!' For, if God had not enabled people to defend themselves against one another, [all] monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques - in [all of] which God's name is abundantly extolled - would surely have been destroyed [before now] ." (22:39-40, emphasis added).
If non-Muslims are "worse than trash" in Islam, if Muslims are supposed to "kill all the infidels," then how could it be that the protection of churches and synagogues (along with mosques) are cited as the reason to fight? This can be when one realizes that the contention that Muslims are supposed to "kill all the infidels" is a farce. Sure there're people who misinterpret this and use it as a call to arms against unbelievers. But is that what Islam actually says? No.
Context, my friend, Context.
Just a little more for you... [60.8] Allah does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of (your) religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely Allah loves the doers of justice.
[60.9] Allah only forbids you respecting those who made war upon you on account of (your) religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up (others) in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust.
4:101 And when ye go forth in the land, it is no sin for you to curtail (your) worship if ye fear that those who disbelieve may attack you. In truth the disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
Thus... 4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
