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Old 06-27-2007, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Arizona, The American Southwest
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Islam is not misunderstood, it's the radical fanatics like Hamas, Hizbollah and Al Qaeda that misunderstood their religion, God's truth, and twisted the meanings of words in the Quran to suit their own agenda.

Those are the kind of people nobody can reason with no matter how hard they try, and we've seen what happened since the Oslo accord in 1993. Most of us didn't see it coming then, but it happened when Palestinians elected Hamas terorrists to run their government, People like that are described in several books in the Bible, perfect example is in Ecclesiastes10:11 If the serpent bites before it is charmed, there is no advantage in a charmer.

Moderate Muslims, who want to live in peace with Christians and Jews and everyone else, do not voice their strong opinions against the fanatic elements of Islam out of fear, because if they do, they'll be viewed as traitors by the radicals. We've seen this happen too many times in Iraq, when Iraqi civilians who helped our Armed forces in finding terrorists, they and members of their families, ended up being murdered.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:11 PM
 
Location: South Bay Native
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum Mike View Post
Islam is not misunderstood, it's the radical fanatics like Hamas, Hizbollah and Al Qaeda that misunderstood their religion, God's truth, and twisted the meanings of words in the Quran to suit their own agenda.

Those are the kind of people nobody can reason with no matter how hard they try, and we've seen what happened since the Oslo accord in 1993. Most of us didn't see it coming then, but it happened when Palestinians elected Hamas terorrists to run their government, People like that are described in several books in the Bible, perfect example is in Ecclesiastes10:11 If the serpent bites before it is charmed, there is no advantage in a charmer.

Moderate Muslims, who want to live in peace with Christians and Jews and everyone else, do not voice their strong opinions against the fanatic elements of Islam out of fear, because if they do, they'll be viewed as traitors by the radicals. We've seen this happen too many times in Iraq, when Iraqi civilians who helped our Armed forces in finding terrorists, they and members of their families, ended up being murdered.
This describes exactly the Serbs who did not agree with the whacko Serbian ethnic cleansers and whenever any Serb stood up for a non-Serb during the war, they were treated to a fate even worse than the Croats, Hungarians, and Bosnians. Their actions were precipitated by pure hatred in the very definition of the word.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Arizona, The American Southwest
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Originally Posted by cjseliga View Post
If Iran ever "nuked" Israel, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad know's that the US would probably just use their own nukes to wipe Iran off the map, same thing if North Korea ever got nukes and used them on South Korea or Japan. So for Ahmadinejad the question is, is it worth annihilating Israel (killing 7 million) when your own country including yourself (70 million) will be destroyed in retaliation? Who knows.
Here are some facts about their culture. The majority of the population in Iran agree with whatever Ahmadinejad says, and life to them has no value, they're willing to die in fighting the "infidels". Look at what the former ruler the Ayatollah did in the 1980's during the war they had with Iraq. He encouraged thousands of young men and boys to join an army that pretty much had no arms, but relied on its numbers to overrun Iraqi army positions. Of course the better equipped Iraqi army, with their machine guns, pretty much wiped out entire garrisons that charged forward. They managed to overrun some Iraqi army positions, but paid very dearly for it with hundreds of thousands killed. Again, to them life has no value.

If they "nuked" Israel, they would not be afraid of US retaliation, they might even welcome it. Remember, those are the same people who cheered in the streets after the September 11th attacks, not to mention with the same radical mindset that would intentionally fly Boeing 767 and 757 jetliners into buildings and kill many innocent civilians, or strap bombs and blow themselves up for their radical agenda. These people WANT to die.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Maine
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Originally Posted by Magnum Mike View Post
Here are some facts about their culture. The majority of the population in Iran agree with whatever Ahmadinejad says, and life to them has no value.
You've never actually met anyone from Iran, have you?
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
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Originally Posted by DontH8Me View Post
I have to agree - but I think the most tragic misunderstanding is made by certain followers of Islam, not those who are outside of it. I have "normal" Muslim friends and they always explain away that those people bombing and killing for their religion are not really sticking with the Quran. They try to distance themselves from the "fanatics".
That is correct. The fanatics give the rest of the normal muslims a bad name.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:39 PM
 
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What exactly is misunderstood about Islam?

Muhammad himself told his followers, "Who relinqueshes his faith, kill him. I have been ordered by Allah to fight with people till they testify there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger."

People say that Islam is about peace and tolerance but a tree is known by its fruits. It was Ayatollah Khomeini who declared: "The purest joy in Islam is to kill and be killed for Allah." 1400 years of violence, attrition, murder, bloodshed, and outright hatred for Jews and Christians would tend to support this idea. You say that fundamentalists are the one's responsible for the violence and terrorist activity. Fundamentalism is defined as a usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles by the American Heritage Dictionary. Based on the evidence these fundamentalists are by definition doing exactly as they should according to the Quran and are simply devoute followers of the examples set forth in the Quran and by Muhammad.

The Muslim religion was founded by a man who based his philosophy around the central theme of "convert or die." He was a polygamous pediphile (by modern standards) who, after the death of his first wife of 25 years married a child of no more than 5 or 6 years old named Aisha and had a total of about 12 wives depending on the source. He hated Jews and Christians and commanded all faithful Muslims to ""Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every strategem." Surah 9:5 He cursed Christians and Jews alike saying, "The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah . . . Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded from the truth." Surah 9:30

Lets take a look a further look at the peaceful nature of Muhammad and the foundations of the Muslim religion.

January 623 A.D. - Muhammad led an attack on 4 merchants attempting to sell raisins and honey. He killed the 4 merchants and took 1/5 of the loot. This took place during a month which was delcared sacred and off limits for war or fighting by Muhammad.

How did he justify this murder? He wrote a "revelation"
Surah 2:216
"Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."
Surah 2:217
"They question you (O Mohammed) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great transgression but to turn men from the way of Allah and to disbelive in Him and the inviolable place of worship and to expel its people thence is a greater transgression, for persecution is worse than killing"

March 623 A.D. - Muhammad's gang killed 200 people and took 70 prisoners while Muhammad hid in a mud hut and threw rocks at people. Afterwards, the gang beheaded an outspoken opponent of Muhammad and threw the severed head at the feet of Muhammad who yelled out, "Rejoice! Here lies the head of the enemy of Allah! Praise Allah, for there is no one but He!"

How did he justify this? Another "revelation"
Surah 8:65
"O Prophet exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you 20 steadfast,they will overcome 200 and if there be of you a 100, they shall overcome a 1000, because the disbelievers are a folk without intelligence"
Surah 8:67-68
"It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. You desire the lure of this world and Allah desires for you the hereafter and Allah is Mighty, Wise.. Now enjoy what you have won as lawful and good and keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful."

March - April 623 A.D. - Muhammad assisnated Abu 'Afak and Asma bint Marwan who were two of the most famous poets of Medina and openly spoke againts Muhammad.

After the death of Asma bint Marwan, Muhammad told the assasins, "You have done a service to Allah and his Messenger, her life was not worth even two goats!"

April 623 A.D. - Muhammad attempted to slaughter the Jewish villiage of Banu Qaynuqa - a settlement of tradesmen and goldsmiths. Abdallah Ibn Ubayy stood up to Muhammad so instead of killing the villagers, Muhammad took the captive and forced the women to become sex-slaves. Again, Muhammad took 1/5 of the loot of gold and women.

Surah 8:55-57
"Lo, the worst of beasts in Allah's sight are the ungrateful who will not believe."

"Those of them with whom you made a treaty and then at every opportunity they break their treaty and they keep not duty to Allah, If you come on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, so that they may remember."

March 625 A.D. - The battle of Uhud. Muhammad attempted to gain the favor of the Jews of Medina and as he was going to war in Mecca. It didn't work and Muhammad botched a surprise attack as he camped above the Meccan army on the slopes of Mount Uhud. Muhammad lost miserably.

Surah 3:140-1
"And if ye have recieved a blow, the disbelievers have recieved a blow the like thereof. These are the vicissitudes which We cause to follow one another for mankind, to the end that Allah may know those who believe and may choose witnesses from among you; and Allah loveth not wrong-doers. And that Allah may prove those who believe and may strike the disbelievers."
Surah 3:153
"When you climbed the hill and paid no heed, while the Messenger (Mohammed) in your rear was calling you to fight. Therefore he rewarded you grief for his grief that he might teach you, not to sorrow either for that which you missed or for that which befell you. Allah is informed of what you do."

March 625 A.D. - Muhammad Bin Maslama kills a famous Jewish poet named Kaab Ibn Al' Ashraf at the request of Muhammad.

May - June 625 A.D. - Muhammad and his army surrounded the Jewish village of Banu-N-Nadir and began destroying palm trees which provided food until the villagers surrendered and were stripped of all their posessions and forced by the sword from their village. Muhammad again took 1/5 of the loot.

The revelation that followed:
Surah 59:2-5
"He it is who hath caused those of the People of the Scripture (Jews) who disbelieved to go forth from their homes unto the first exile. You deemed not that they would go forth, while they deemed that their strongholds would protect them from Allah. But Allah reached them from a place whereof they recked not and cast terror in their hearts so that they ruined their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers. So learn a lesson, O you who have eyes!
"And if Allah had not decreed migration for them, he verily would have punished them in this world and theirs in the hereafter is the punishment of the Fire!"
"That is because they were opposed to Allah and his Messenger ; and whoso is opposed to Allah (for him) verily Allah is stern in reprisal."
"Whatsoever palm-trees you cut down or left standing on their roots, it was by Allah's leave, in order that He might confound the Evil-Livers."

April 626 A.D. - Murder of Abu Rafi, a Jewish Elder. Several Muslims decided to honor Muhammad by killing Rafi. Afterwards, "there was a fight among them as to who had actually killed Abu Rafi. At this, the Prophet smiled beatifically and started checking their swords. Finally, it was decided that the person who owned the sword which still had traces of food in it, was the winner. Apparently Abu Rafi had just finished his dinner before falling asleep and the sword had slashed through his stomach spilling its contents. Indeed how Benevolent was the Apostle of Peace!"

December 626 A.D. - Massacre, Rape, and Plunder of Banu-L-Mustaliq. Muhammad and his army took captive 2000 camel, 500 sheep, and 500 women after killing all the men and boys in the village. Afterwards, one of Muhammad's soldiers and Muhammad had the following conversation, "We were lusting after women and chastity had become too hard for us, but we wanted to get the ransom money for our prisoners. So we wanted to use the "Azl" (Coitus Interruptus- where the man withdraws before ejaculating)...We asked the Prophet about it and he said: "You are not under any obligation to stop yourselves from doing it like that.." Later on the women and children were given for ransom to their envoys. They all went away to their country and not One wanted to stay although they had the choice."

April - May 627 A.D. - The Massacre of Banu Qurayza. Muhammad attacked this village and at the end, he forced an old Jewih man to read the sentence Muhammad had ordered against the surviving Jews - Death, rape, and slavery. All of the men were bound at the hands and feet and given one chance to convert to Islam before being beheaded and thrown into a trech around the village. Not one Jewish man converted and Muhammad beheaded 900 Jewish men in one day. the women were raped and sold into slavery.

Justification - Muhammad had another revelation:
Surah 4:24
"And all married women are forbidden unto you EXCEPT those captives whom your right hand possesses. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that you seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery..."
Surah 5:51
O you who believe! Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is one of them. Lo allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
Surah 5:64
The Jews say: "Allah's hand is fettered." It is THEIR hands that are fettered and they are ACCURSED for saying so. Nay, but both his (Allah's) hands are spread in bounty. He bestoweth as he will. That which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and belief of many of them, And We have cast among them (The Jews) Enmity and Hatred till the day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it!

February 628 A.D. - Massacre of Jewish tribesmen from Banu Sa'd Tribe, Thirty Jews from Khaybar

January - February 628 A.D. - Murder of Bedouin women, Meccan Caravan

September 628 A.D. - Massacre of over 500 Jews of Khaybar

1971 - 3,000,000 Bangledeshi Hindus killed
1894 - 1896 - 150,000 Armenian Christians killed by Abdul Hamid
July 1974 - 4,000 Christians killed by Fahri Koroturk
1843-1846 10,000 Assyrian Christians including women and children murdered by Muslims
1915-1918 750,000 Assyrians were killed in the name of Islamic Jihad
Sept 11, 2001 - Almost 3000 Americans killed at the hands of Islam.

This religion was founded by a murderous barbarian and has continued it reign of terror for over 1400 years. You tell me what is misunderstood. The history speaks for itself. Many of you may say that similar things have been done in the name of Christianity and you would be right except that it wasn't Christ out there killing, raping, and plundering. Christ even healed those who would take him to his death and loved them as much as he loved his disciples. Muhammad set the example and the so called fundamentalists are simply following the ways of their prophet. I wish it weren't so, but facts are facts.
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Old 06-27-2007, 05:41 PM
 
Location: Arizona, The American Southwest
51,816 posts, read 29,888,322 times
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Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
You've never actually met anyone from Iran, have you?
No I never did, and you don't have to, afterall, how do you think this Ahmedenijad guy got elected?
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Old 06-27-2007, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Maine
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Originally Posted by Magnum Mike View Post
No I never did, and you don't have to, afterall, how do you think this Ahmedenijad guy got elected?
Saying they have a nut for a President (look in the mirror lately? ) and saying that they agree with everything their President says and that their culture has no value for life is two entirely different things. The former is a legitimate topic of debate. The latter is just hyperbole and silly.

Iran is probably the most "modern" and western of the Middle Eastern states, with the possible exception of Turkey. Just because they have a wacko leading the country (and they're hardly alone in that these days), does not mean that the Iranian people are bad.

The overwhelming majority of Iranians are great people who want the same thing out of life that we do: To raise our families in peace.
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Old 06-27-2007, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Arizona, The American Southwest
51,816 posts, read 29,888,322 times
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Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Saying they have a nut for a President (look in the mirror lately? ) and saying that they agree with everything their President says and that their culture has no value for life is two entirely different things. The former is a legitimate topic of debate. The latter is just hyperbole and silly.
I guess the test will be with the next election in Iran. If he gets reelected, then we'll the truth about the Iranian people.

Quote:
Iran is probably the most "modern" and western of the Middle Eastern states, with the possible exception of Turkey. Just because they have a wacko leading the country (and they're hardly alone in that these days), does not mean that the Iranian people are bad.
I'd have to disagree with you on Iran being the most mdern and western of the Middle East. Have you looked at Lebanon, which is the only country in the middle east with the largest Christian population? How about Dubai, Qatar, Abu Dhabi, and Bahrain? All 4 of which are moderate Islamic states and they are some of the richest and most modern in the Persian Gulf.

Quote:
The overwhelming majority of Iranians are great people who want the same thing out of life that we do: To raise our families in peace.
I'm sure there are a lot of decent Iranians, and I'm sure there are a lot of them who want to live in peace with their neighbors, but again we'll see what happens with the next presidential elections in Iran.
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Old 06-28-2007, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
Saying they have a nut for a President (look in the mirror lately? ) and saying that they agree with everything their President says and that their culture has no value for life is two entirely different things. The former is a legitimate topic of debate. The latter is just hyperbole and silly.

Iran is probably the most "modern" and western of the Middle Eastern states, with the possible exception of Turkey. Just because they have a wacko leading the country (and they're hardly alone in that these days), does not mean that the Iranian people are bad.

The overwhelming majority of Iranians are great people who want the same thing out of life that we do: To raise our families in peace.


Great Post. I absolutely agree. I have been to Iran many times and the people are some of the nicest and friendliest you could hope to meet. They are hospitable and balanced human beings and are not fanatics. And the majority of people do not actually agree with Ahmadinejad by the way.
Maybe some people would benefit from actually visiting the country they speak of before making generalisations.

Iran is going through a massive social change again for the better . I recommend reading the "New Internationalist" magazine's issue on this subject for some slightly more informed facts.


As for quoting the Q'uran I think that a lot of the old testament could be interpreted as being just as violent and bellicose.

There are fanatics everywhere and Muslims do not have this dubious monopoly of extremism. Some of the views expressed on this forum are really very shocking in their hatred, bigotry and even worse complete ignorance. I would consider quite a few posters on CD to be just as dangerous as the people they profess to understand so well. Maybe it's a question of minds thinking alike?
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