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Old 10-01-2010, 07:20 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
4,891 posts, read 3,980,500 times
Reputation: 4138

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I have an "ART BOOK" in my collection, written in Russian with English Translation on each page. It is called "History of Art is Soviet Azerbaijan" The fascinating aspect of this book (and slap me for being such an art geek) Is that a quote from the book is "The soviets liberated the Azerbaijan people from the restrictions of Islam" Whcih means that the artists could do what they wanted.
OR rather, what the Soviet State allowed them to want to do.......

I would not want to live in a Muslim society. I value my freedom of Expression. I may have millions of enemies in the US in the Christian society because of my views and my works, but at least here in the USA at least there is not a thing they can do about it. I'd hate to think of being shot because I painted a nekked woman in Tehran.
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Old 10-01-2010, 11:40 PM
 
Location: CA
2,464 posts, read 5,826,712 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Sorry . . . but this "tolerance" plea does not and should never extend to barbarity in any civilized society. Islam as expressed in Sharia is barbaric. Freedom of speech is not an ethnocentric value . . . it is a fundamental principle of a civilized and free people.
I wasn't talking about Sharia. I'm referring to a misguided premise in the case of a blogger being sent to prison. In the article of what the OP was referring to, it was the oppressive Iranian government that dolled out a disproportionately harsh punishment for criticizing the oppressive Iranian government and backing the losing party (I forget the candidates name off hand). So I don't think it's fair to tie Islam into each and every barbaric act that occurs at the hand of the Iranian government. That's like saying Christianity is responsible for the war culture that is the United States.

Any government is capable of suppressing speech, it doesn't have to be a Muslim state. It has more to do with the government in power than the religion. Freedom of speech is a Western value IMO and just because it doesn't exist everywhere doesn't mean that the societies who don't have it aren't civilized or otherwise free to go about their lives (of course, there are extreme cases like North Korea).

And also... don't be surprised if within our lifetime that Iran's ruling power could change. I don't believe they (Muslims) WANT to be oppressed. I think they want to express themselves and speak their minds just like the rest of us but they aren't allowed (yet).
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,892 posts, read 31,793,503 times
Reputation: 12635
Islam IS the government in Iran, so politics and religion go hand in hand... The Iranian president is not the head of state nor the commander in chief. That status is held by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the supreme leader, whose role combines civil and religious authority.
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Old 10-02-2010, 12:36 AM
 
Location: Ohio
19,953 posts, read 14,260,675 times
Reputation: 16133
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
TEHRAN, Iran An Iranian court sentenced the founder of one of the first Farsi-language blogs, credited with sparking the boom in Iranian reform bloggers, to more than 19 years in prison for his writings, a news web site reported Tuesday.

Unbelievable...19 years in prison for words on a blog.
If it had been the Shah, the man would have been beaten and tortured by the CIA and DGSE-trained SAVAK and then executed.

If he had tried to nationalize the oil resources, the US would have attempted to murder him.

So what's your point?

You have none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgoldie View Post
This is an example of breaking sharia law. No one is allowed to offend islam or it's imams or insult the religion.
Wow, how ignorant you are of your own past.

Um, the last Inquisition was in 1810, just 200 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
You do know that Iran is a theocracy don't you? Islam is the politics in Iran.
Yes, and that means NUNYA.

Nunya damn business. It's their country and they can choose whatever form of government they want, and you have nothing to say about it.

And spare us your platitudes on revolution.

When 50.1% of the people accept a government, then the majority of people have given their consent that the government is legitimate, even if it is 3 prawns and a dancing dog.

That's called democracy. Look into it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geofra View Post
Iran disallows freedom of speech.
Iran is Muslim.
Therefore, Islam disallows freedom of speech.

North Korea disallows freedom of speech.
It's proven above that Islam disallows freedom of speech.
Therefore, North Korea is Muslim.

That is as illogical as your arguments in this thread.

The suppression of speech is a political power move against the ruling regime's opposition, who happen to be Muslim, themselves.
There's an excellent analysis. You could learn something here, but why would you want to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Logic has nothing to do with this issue of Islam . . . ignorance does. It is a DEEN . . . look up this arabic word and lose your ignorance. Islam is completely political . . . it covers ALL aspects of life ...
That's hysterical. Judaism and christianity also "cover ALL aspects of life."

You're told what you can eat, and what you can't. When you can touch your wife and have conjugal relations and when you can't (like when she's menstruating or in the time after child-birth), and all other facets of life are also regulated.

So what's you're point? You have none. And even if you did, it ain't nunya business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchlights View Post
That's what Iranian laws have to do with Islam. Religion and politics come in one big package in those countries. Ahmadenejad is not in charge. The Ayatollah is.
Wow. I was beginning to think I was the only one out of the all the thousands of members on this forum who knows how Iran's government is organized.

In relation to the US structure of government, Ahmadinejad would be equivalent to the Speaker of the House.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is NO SEPARATION of the secular from religion in Islam.
Turkey anyone?

There are many Muslim countries that are secular. The fact that you're not aware of them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
But Islam is completely INTOLERANT of ANY other religion or government.
So is christianity and if christians had power, they would be converting by the gun, but they no longer have that power.

You obviously can't comprehend that Islam is about 500 years behind christianity in development, and you are totally ignorant of the fact that the majority of Islamic countries are still sociologically tribal societies.

There is no possible way to compare Muslim countries with western democracies, since two or more things that are similar are compare, while two or more things that are different are contrasted.

Europe abandoned tribal society about 400 years ago. You might want to study the Treaty of Westphalia so you don't continue to embarrass yourself.

I would also point out that not only your failure, but the failure of your government to understand that countries like Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan (to name but a few) is the reason why you will ultimately be defeated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Ok... except for the fact that only eight of 48 countries with majority Muslim populations govern solely based upon Sharia or Islamic law.
There's another very important consideration and that is the economy.

You'll notice that 16 of those countries are very democratic, but that they also have no single cash-crop (they have a diversified economy).

Those countries that have a single cash-crop, like oil, or chocolate/coffee/sugar cane are very totalitarian in nature.

Also notice that the democratic Muslim countries get only token support or no support at all from the US, while the totalitarian Muslim countries get $Billions in foreign and and other benefits and a tremendous amount of political support.

Like in Tunisia, the only freedom you have is the freedom to shut up.

In Jordan, where 1/6th if the GDP is US foreign aid, King Abdullah II abolished the parliament (very democratic indeed).

In Saudi Arabia where the government shuts down TV stations, radio stations, newspapers, internet sites and printing presses, the only place where you can openly criticize the government is in a mosque, so sure Islam becomes politicized.

From their point of view, it is the US that is propping up the Saudi government so sure, attacking the US is legitimate since forcing the US to withdraw support for the Saudi government weakens it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Thou shalt not criticize Islam, Mohammad or Allah ...If you do that makes you intolerant in the eyes of a Muslim, and Muslims always take that personally....This indicates a clear lack of free speech, does it not?
No, it does not. Even in the US your constitutional right to free speech only protects against action from the government.

In the workplace and elsewhere, you have no free speech.

Criticize Jesus in the workplace and if you get fired, you have no recourse, because it is not protected speech.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gplex View Post
When I say you're barbaric because you support wife beaters (which is true)
Well, again it was only a few hundred years ago when you were doing the exact same thing, and now you want to act like you're morally superior simply because your society was already 500 years ahead of Islam.

The last public execution under Sharia Law was in 1878.

The Muslim man was executed for beating a slave. That was in Albania or Bosnia.

How many Americans were executed, or even punished for beating a slave?

Upon receiving evidence that slaves were being mistreated in two cities, a Persian king sent an army to both cities, freed the slaves and slaughtered all of the inhabitants.

I guess if you were one of those slaves you'd be whining and crying about Sharia Law.

The difference between Romania under the Ottoman Empire and Romania under Holy Roman Empire was that under the Ottoman Empire, the Muslims didn't force them to convert, and didn't murder them.

You can't say that about the Holy Roman Empire who tried to force Romanians to convert to catholicism and slaughtered and enslaved them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is no such thing as Freedom of Speech in Islam, period!
Well of course there is. When I was in Turkey there were any problems and when I was in Egypt training the military in RACO there were any problems.

It's too bad you don't apply your criticism to christian leaders who make bone-headed comments. Of course they often lose their jobs or positions, so then they don't really have free speech either, do they? Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
My prayer is that somehow Islam will become a peaceful religion like muslims keep saying it is or it will cease to exist...
Well then instead of praying, why don't you put political leaders in Washington who will stay the hell out of Muslim countries and stop interfering.

That's the fastest way to allow those societies to develop and eventually your prayer will be answered, not by any god, but by common sense.
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:46 AM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,734,881 times
Reputation: 591
The last public execution under Sharia Law was in 1878!!! iran gay hanging - Google Search

This is your debating strategy.
Someone points out something horrible about islam, you look through out history, and claim "X" people aren't any better.

Democratic republic. - not the same as a democracy.

If we found a abundant energy source, besides oil. Islam would no longer receive the large funding it has today. Without this funding islamic countries would return to poverty stricken state they once were, if they're not already part in such a state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geofra View Post
Iran disallows freedom of speech.
Iran is Muslim.
Therefore, Islam disallows freedom of speech.

North Korea disallows freedom of speech.
It's proven above that Islam disallows freedom of speech.
Therefore, North Korea is Muslim.

That is as illogical as your arguments in this thread.

The suppression of speech is a political power move against the ruling regime's opposition, who happen to be Muslim, themselves.
This is NOT a "excellent analysis", the blasphemy laws in islam do not allow free speech. The sharia says the penalties for blasphemy can include - fines, imprisonment, flogging, amputation, crucifixion, hanging, or beheading..

Thunderf00t said it best.

YouTube - Is Islam a hate crime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasersaeed View Post
i didn't say toothbrush....and it's not allowed to hurt your wife or make the beating painfall

re-read my post
Sharia law says NO SUCH THING

Last edited by Gplex; 10-02-2010 at 02:00 AM..
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:07 AM
 
Location: CA
2,464 posts, read 5,826,712 times
Reputation: 2593
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Islam IS the government in Iran, so politics and religion go hand in hand... The Iranian president is not the head of state nor the commander in chief. That status is held by Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the supreme leader, whose role combines civil and religious authority.
I'm aware of this, thanks. I can see how you'd equate the two and have difficulty separating them, BUT it doesn't mean there isn't a separation between the Iranian government's views of freedom of speech and what the Iranian Muslims want. Muslims have been killed, tortured, and imprisoned fighting against their government (you know, "Freedom For Iran" campaign, wear green in support of the Iranian people... you've heard of it?).

Iranians are very passionate, modern, and educated people - they are NOT pro-oppression and tyrannical as some people in this thread make them out to be. They can't be lumped in altogether with the actions of their government when they've clearly expressed their dissent. It does a serious disservice to them to suggest they are totally anti-free speech just because their government takes it to the extreme.

Last edited by mommabear2; 10-02-2010 at 04:43 AM..
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Old 10-02-2010, 06:31 AM
 
56 posts, read 69,852 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Sharia law says NO SUCH THING
so you know islam better than a born muslim? who read a lot of islamic books and the quran everyday ?



=============================



first of all do you think it's okay that the one you love having sex before they got married is okay?

do you think stealing is okay?

do you think killing is okay?

do you think wine and drugs is okay?

============================

if you think they are okay, then be it i don't care


but if you don't think they are okay and they lead to hate and problems in society ( then that's why Islam put such rights and laws, to solve those problems )

if you don't get or understand why unmarried sex and gays sex i can't say nothing except see why your society is full of crimnals, kidnappers and other ( not saying that we don't have this but they are way way way too rare)

e.x : i would not go out in USA after 7 PM walking in streets, but in UAE i do sports at 1-2 am in streets feeling safe....





hope no one quote my post.... i am tried of this topic
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Florida
19,842 posts, read 19,937,680 times
Reputation: 23281
Quote:
Originally Posted by nasersaeed View Post
so you know islam better than a born muslim? who read a lot of islamic books and the quran everyday ?



=============================



first of all do you think it's okay that the one you love having sex before they got married is okay?

do you think stealing is okay?

do you think killing is okay?

do you think wine and drugs is okay?

============================

if you think they are okay, then be it i don't care


but if you don't think they are okay and they lead to hate and problems in society ( then that's why Islam put such rights and laws, to solve those problems )

if you don't get or understand why unmarried sex and gays sex i can't say nothing except see why your society is full of crimnals, kidnappers and other ( not saying that we don't have this but they are way way way too rare)

e.x : i would not go out in USA after 7 PM walking in streets, but in UAE i do sports at 1-2 am in streets feeling safe....





hope no one quote my post.... i am tried of this topic
Locking people up and only letting them out supervised would probably eliminate all those problems too.
ALL people....men included.
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:23 AM
 
56 posts, read 69,852 times
Reputation: 14
Quote:
Locking people up and only letting them out supervised would probably eliminate all those problems too.
ALL people....men included.
really? so is killing people.... but it's not a solution

you don't solve a problem by another problem
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Old 10-02-2010, 10:17 AM
 
69 posts, read 83,329 times
Reputation: 23
All societies have laws against killing and stealing. All societies regard sexual promiscuity as problematic. But there are aspects of Islam where the emphasis is on protecting the ruler and not society. Or it infinges on indiividual rights once again for the sake of the ruler. This is because the Sunni/Shia orthodoxy emerged during the end of the Ummayid and the beginning of the Abbasid era. Its job was to protect the ruling class. Not the society.

The Koran gives complete and absolute freedom yet we don't see that in Sunni/Shia teachings. The Koran also is non sectarian yet we see sectarianism in the Sunni/Shia orthodoxy. Imam Muslim has over 40 hadiths that emphasizes obeying the ruler. You would not find even one verse in the Koran and that tells you top obey the ruler when he is forcinh himself on you. Look what the koran says about the Pharoah? Look also what it says about giving your money to the rulers and elites? Yet many Muslim countries we see that happening in the name of zakat or in the name of Jizya in history. These are not Koranic concepts but are found in the tsunamis of hadiths that these sects have.

Finally the Koran does not speak of pre marital sex. It speaks of adultery. They are not the same thing. Marriage is a process of paper and witness. Its a legal process. The important thing is commitment and sincerity between couples. Sunnis and Shia legalized slavery and legalised forced sex on female captives. They also legalised executing prisoners of war. All forbidden in the Koran. This was not done to protect societies but to protect the rulers and their economic interests. It was the Abbasid ruler Al Mutawakkil who championed the Sunnis against the Mutazilites. He championed Malik ibn Annas and Al Shafi and co. Because they brought hadiths that gave him religious authority to behave like a tyrant.

All of this contradicts the Koran head to toe. These acts were commited by the Pharoah in the Koran. He threatened to exucute Moses and the magicians under his apostasy law. Sunnis and Shia have the same laws. He also enslaved the Israelites. Sunnis and Shias have legalized slavery.

Koran Islam is different from Sunni/Shia Islam.

Haven't you heard?
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