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Old 10-02-2010, 11:08 AM
 
Location: CA
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These articles discuss the Iranian government in simple terms. Very basic but informative for your reading pleasure.

Is Iran’s Green Movement an Islam of Freedom? | Only Democracy For Iran

Iran Suppresses Free Speech (Iran Press Service)
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Old 10-02-2010, 11:34 AM
 
69 posts, read 83,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommabear2 View Post
These articles discuss the Iranian government in simple terms. Very basic but informative for your reading pleasure.

Is Iran’s Green Movement an Islam of Freedom? | Only Democracy For Iran

Iran Suppresses Free Speech (Iran Press Service)
These movements will never gain any traction in Iran.

Their message is:

Either you follow Shia sectarianism Islam OR you apostate from Islam.

They are not offering any DIFFERENT interpretation of Islam. They are simply offering a no Islam.

Given that choice between Shia Islam and no Islam. The Iranians will chose Shiasm. Every single time. They will not apostate since that is not a viable option for most Iranians or Muslims. They can of course reform the current Islam. You know the Sunni/Shia Islam. But to do so would mean abandoning Sunni and Shia islam since these religions are theocratic by their make up. They emerged to help establish a theocray for the Abbasid dynasty to help it maintain order, unity and compete with the Byzantinian Empire.

The solution is a DIFFERENT Islam. And not no Islam.
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:22 PM
 
Location: CA
2,464 posts, read 5,821,394 times
Reputation: 2593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quranist View Post
These movements will never gain any traction in Iran.

Their message is:

Either you follow Shia sectarianism Islam OR you apostate from Islam.

They are not offering any DIFFERENT interpretation of Islam. They are simply offering a no Islam.

Given that choice between Shia Islam and no Islam. The Iranians will chose Shiasm. Every single time. They will not apostate since that is not a viable option for most Iranians or Muslims. They can of course reform the current Islam. You know the Sunni/Shia Islam. But to do so would mean abandoning Sunni and Shia islam since these religions are theocratic by their make up. They emerged to help establish a theocray for the Abbasid dynasty to help it maintain order, unity and compete with the Byzantinian Empire.

The solution is a DIFFERENT Islam. And not no Islam.

I'm confused. What movement do you speak of in Iran that promotes no Islam? Are you speaking of the website name itself which states "Supports a Free and Secular Iran" (found here http://www.onlydemocracy4iran.com/about/). If that's the case, I was referencing the article itself. Or were you referring to the Green Movement and the supporters of Mousavi?

If that's the case, the Green Movement has been portrayed very differently:

"For them (referring to Mousavi - a Twelver Shi'a Islamist), the opposition "Green Movement" is a grassroots initiative pursuing the aspirations of the revolution, including free elections, freedom of expression and respect for human rights."

I personally never viewed the opposition as a secular movement (which doesn't seem feasible since 98% +/- of Iranians are Muslims). I've always seen them as Muslims who want a freer society. I would agree that the solution is a different Islam in Iran. Iranians obviously do not want a secular government.

There's portion of the Green movement that promotes what you state (a no Islam solution). I think they are the minority though and probably won't gain traction for reasons that you state. A freer Muslim society though, is not out of the question, which is what I've been trying to get across here.


Just a side note from a previous article:

"This tension has theological and philosophical roots that can be traced back centuries, particularly through debates over the meaning of tawhid. The interpretation of this theological concept is a critical distinction between the systems of “power-based” and “freedom-based” Islam." Interesting...

Last edited by mommabear2; 10-02-2010 at 01:41 PM..
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:24 PM
 
56 posts, read 69,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quranist View Post
All societies have laws against killing and stealing. All societies regard sexual promiscuity as problematic. But there are aspects of Islam where the emphasis is on protecting the ruler and not society. Or it infinges on indiividual rights once again for the sake of the ruler. This is because the Sunni/Shia orthodoxy emerged during the end of the Ummayid and the beginning of the Abbasid era. Its job was to protect the ruling class. Not the society.

The Koran gives complete and absolute freedom yet we don't see that in Sunni/Shia teachings. The Koran also is non sectarian yet we see sectarianism in the Sunni/Shia orthodoxy. Imam Muslim has over 40 hadiths that emphasizes obeying the ruler. You would not find even one verse in the Koran and that tells you top obey the ruler when he is forcinh himself on you. Look what the koran says about the Pharoah? Look also what it says about giving your money to the rulers and elites? Yet many Muslim countries we see that happening in the name of zakat or in the name of Jizya in history. These are not Koranic concepts but are found in the tsunamis of hadiths that these sects have.

Finally the Koran does not speak of pre marital sex. It speaks of adultery. They are not the same thing. Marriage is a process of paper and witness. Its a legal process. The important thing is commitment and sincerity between couples. Sunnis and Shia legalized slavery and legalised forced sex on female captives. They also legalised executing prisoners of war. All forbidden in the Koran. This was not done to protect societies but to protect the rulers and their economic interests. It was the Abbasid ruler Al Mutawakkil who championed the Sunnis against the Mutazilites. He championed Malik ibn Annas and Al Shafi and co. Because they brought hadiths that gave him religious authority to behave like a tyrant.

All of this contradicts the Koran head to toe. These acts were commited by the Pharoah in the Koran. He threatened to exucute Moses and the magicians under his apostasy law. Sunnis and Shia have the same laws. He also enslaved the Israelites. Sunnis and Shias have legalized slavery.

Koran Islam is different from Sunni/Shia Islam.

Haven't you heard?

i suppose you don't know which topic suits your posts and which don't

in this you should side with me and muslims, and yet are attacking suni/shia

i suppose you know arabic.... so

why not take a tour in those videos to take a look at your beliefs
YouTube - ‫

and if you don't know arabic....

here's a simple video contains some question that you need to ask yourself about

YouTube - Some Questions For Quranist Cult
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Old 10-02-2010, 01:57 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,731,477 times
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Default http://www.city-data.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=16115795

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasersaeed View Post
so you know islam better than a born muslim? who read a lot of islamic books and the quran everyday ?



=============================



first of all do you think it's okay that the one you love having sex before they got married is okay?

do you think stealing is okay?

do you think killing is okay?

do you think wine and drugs is okay?

============================

if you think they are okay, then be it i don't care


but if you don't think they are okay and they lead to hate and problems in society ( then that's why Islam put such rights and laws, to solve those problems )
This is our problem, YOU think killing, and stealing peoples dignity is just fine, I think having sex and drinking is just fine..

Quote:
Originally Posted by nasersaeed View Post
if you don't get or understand why unmarried sex and gays sex i can't say nothing except see why your society is full of crimnals, kidnappers and other ( not saying that we don't have this but they are way way way too rare)

e.x : i would not go out in USA after 7 PM walking in streets, but in UAE i do sports at 1-2 am in streets feeling safe....

hope no one quote my post.... i am tried of this topic
You have a big problem if you think sex is worst then flogging, amputation, crucifixion, hanging, or beheading. Your fear mongering silly notion that sex = more crime is STUPID.

YouTube - Bill Maher On Islam and the South Park "Muhammad Bear Suit" Controversy

I could never walk on the streets of mecca without being shot! I walk around the streets of wellington, late at night to early in the morning without once being attacked..



http://www.goofigure.com/images/library/muslim_protest_2.jpg (broken link)
http://onislamicfascism.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/british-muslim-protest41.jpg (broken link)

These are the people you are comparing me too
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Old 10-02-2010, 02:35 PM
 
56 posts, read 69,771 times
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Quote:
This is our problem, YOU think killing, and stealing peoples dignity is just fine, I think having sex and drinking is just fine..
since when i said it's okay? to kill or steal peoples dignity ? or since did Islam say so.... ( that's just what think although it's not true )


Quote:
You have a big problem if you think sex is worst then flogging, amputation, crucifixion, hanging, or beheading. Your fear mongering silly notion that sex = more crime is STUPID.
if someone take your sister virginity then left after getting done, how will you feel about that person? you'll love him>? or hate him for what he did?

and when you feel hate what you do? you can always control your feeling >? and let's suppose you can.... do you think others can?

and what if she got pregnant? what will happen to the illegal child ?
Quote:
I could never walk on the streets of mecca without being shot! I walk around the streets of wellington, late at night to early in the morning without once being attacked..
it's not allowed to kill at Mecca at all, unless you have no other choice

and just to let you know, you are not allowed to go Mecca unless you are a muslim

Quote:
so? are they proofed guilty according to the conditions i mentioned in the other topic?

if you searched, you'll see that Iran doesn't do it according to what Islam say....

Quote:
These are the people you are comparing me too
you can find ugly images and videos that doesn't make since at all even at hospitals ....

and they are just angry, but did they kill anyone ? ( only few did who didn't think of the outcome of their doings )

and even if they did killed, what does Islam to do with the some wrong behavior?

Islam disallow anyone to do things that might lead to wars ( or Fetna)
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Old 10-02-2010, 03:16 PM
 
69 posts, read 83,245 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommabear2 View Post
I'm confused. What movement do you speak of in Iran that promotes no Islam? Are you speaking of the website name itself which states "Supports a Free and Secular Iran" (found here About Us | Only Democracy For Iran). If that's the case, I was referencing the article itself. Or were you referring to the Green Movement and the supporters of Mousavi?

If that's the case, the Green Movement has been portrayed very differently:

"For them (referring to Mousavi - a Twelver Shi'a Islamist), the opposition "Green Movement" is a grassroots initiative pursuing the aspirations of the revolution, including free elections, freedom of expression and respect for human rights."

I personally never viewed the opposition as a secular movement (which doesn't seem feasible since 98% +/- of Iranians are Muslims). I've always seen them as Muslims who want a freer society. I would agree that the solution is a different Islam in Iran. Iranians obviously do not want a secular government.

There's portion of the Green movement that promotes what you state (a no Islam solution). I think they are the minority though and probably won't gain traction for reasons that you state. A freer Muslim society though, is not out of the question, which is what I've been trying to get across here.


Just a side note from a previous article:

"This tension has theological and philosophical roots that can be traced back centuries, particularly through debates over the meaning of tawhid. The interpretation of this theological concept is a critical distinction between the systems of “power-based” and “freedom-based” Islam." Interesting...
Secular is nothing. Iraq was secular, look at it now. Iran was secular under the Shah. Look at it now. Israel was secular, look at it now.

The religion itself does not go through any change when we talk about secularism. Secularism limits the scope of religion and is perceived by Muslims a declaration of defeat or a declaration that Islam is unfit, backward and not able to offer solutions. Thats why secularism is a dirty word for Muslims. Plus more religious parties(as the case with israel and Turkey) and pop up and create a more religious societies. Today israel is calling for a Jewish state and want land for Jews claiming its their biblical land. Thats not a secular system, thats a theocracy.

This is due to Judaism and Islam being a very legalistic and ritualistic religions that never went through any reformation. One is dominated by the Talmud, the other the Sunnah.

Christianity developed a Trinity theology, but it never had another revelation along with the scriptures. So Christianity was able to be secular and not contradict itself. That won't be possible for Judaism or Islam. Muslim are just more honest about while Jews try to hide that fact. But not any more.
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:12 PM
 
Location: NZ Wellington
2,782 posts, read 3,731,477 times
Reputation: 591
Quote:
Originally Posted by nasersaeed View Post
since when i said it's okay? to kill or steal peoples dignity ? or since did Islam say so.... ( that's just what think although it's not true )

if someone take your sister virginity then left after getting done, how will you feel about that person? you'll love him>? or hate him for what he did?

and when you feel hate what you do? you can always control your feeling >? and let's suppose you can.... do you think others can?

and what if she got pregnant? what will happen to the illegal child ?
it's not allowed to kill at Mecca at all, unless you have no other choice

and just to let you know, you are not allowed to go Mecca unless you are a muslim

so? are they proofed guilty according to the conditions i mentioned in the other topic?

if you searched, you'll see that Iran doesn't do it according to what Islam say....

you can find ugly images and videos that doesn't make since at all even at hospitals ....

and they are just angry, but did they kill anyone ? ( only few did who didn't think of the outcome of their doings )

and even if they did killed, what does Islam to do with the some wrong behavior?

Islam disallow anyone to do things that might lead to wars ( or Fetna)
I know I'm not allow to go to mecca if I'm not a muslim hence, I would be shot! The most bigoted intolerant religion I have ever come to know.

Just look what countries run under sharia law.

These countries are not known for "peace and low crime".


This values that you seem to hate, freedom from religion, freedom of speech, and equality, have spawn the technological marvels that you are using to try and demonize these values on this website. Without these values, you wouldn't have the computer you are sitting on now.

And if this guy didn't leave, would I love him.. NO Love that I have for my sister came from many many years of trust and respect.

Sharia law Sharia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I've only read a small part of this page, but what I have read, is accurate.

I like how you avoid all the killing and torturing I mention, its a sure sign that you are ashamed of your own religion.. That's a good thing, that means you are a good person, somewhere under all that homophobic, and genocidal dreaming.

How many people died over a drawing of a cartoon, do you even know? These people kill over a freaken cartoon!

"We have a healthy attitude, we like it's fun it's jolly, because it is a primary impulse, it can be dangerous and dark and difficult; it's a bit like food in that respect, only even more exciting. The only people who are obsessed with food, are the anorectics and the morbidly obese."

You and people like you are, are the anorectics of sex and erotic behavior.

When Muhammad and his followers were about to attack Mecca to subjugate it to Islam, his adherents arrested Abu Sufyan, one of Mecca’s inhabitants. They brought him to Muhammad. Muhammad told him: "Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to realize that there is no God but the only God?" Abu Sufyan answered: "I do believe that." Muhammad then said to him: "Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to know that I am the apostle of God?" Abu Sufyan answered: "By God, O Muhammad, of this there is doubt in my soul." The ’Abbas who was present with Muhammad told Abu Sufyan: "Woe to you! Accept Islam and testify that Muhammad is the apostle of God before your neck is cut off by the sword." Thus he professed the faith of Islam and became a Muslim.
- Isn't this the "great example" that muhammad is?

No, all you have to do is google, "sharia executions", and many many more pictures, that would get deleted by the admins here pop up.

Yes as an adult I have always controlled my feelings, I do not go out on the street and kill some people because someone burned/flush/made fun of a book!!!


These are the points you missed in the video.
  • Islam has not been hijacked.
    • Assumption: all religions are benign & anodyne.
      • The Bible is composed of many books spanning centuries, containing culture, history, parables and allegories.
      • The Qur'an was uttered by a single man and focuses on imperatives.
        • Internal contradictions are resolved by the science of Naskh: latter verses abrogate earlier verses with which they conflict.
          • no compulsion in religion
          • fight them until only Allah is worshiped
        • The Qur'an is not an a la carte menu, it is all or nothing; take it or leave it.
        • The message is clear, direct and immutable.
        • Islam's Mercenary Mission
  • Global imposition of Islamic doctrine & practice is a religious duty.
    • Islam encompasses all aspects of society including:
      • belief & ritual worship
      • economic transactions
      • contracts
      • morals & manners
      • crime & punishment
    • Democratic/representative forms of government are abominations.
    • Criticism of Allah, Muhammad and their system is punished by death.
      • Islamic law is being practiced in Britain and demands for it are being made in Europe.
        • Shari'ah permits:
          • wife beating
          • honor killing
          • blood money
          • an eye for an eye, literally.
        • Shari'ah mandates:
          • corporal punishment
            • hand amputation for theft
            • lashing for drinking & gambling
            • death for :
              • gays
              • apostates
              • adulterers
              • critics of :
                • Allah
                • Muhammad
                • Qur'an
                • Islam
          • Offensive, aggressive and unjust jihad: against:
            • Jews, Christians & Zoroastrians
            • All other non-Islamic people.
  • Muslims are allowed to deceive non-Muslims to protect and advance the imposition of Islam.
    • al-Taqiyya: dissembling
    • kitman: concealment of material facts
    • duality: one message in English, the opposite in Arabic.
    • Deception is useful in war; Islam is at war with the world until it comes under Islamic domination.
    • "Religion of Peace"
      • Muslims quote early, relatively peaceful~tolerant verses while obscuring the more violent verses that abrogated those early verses.
      • Peace comes with the completion of global conquest.

YouTube - Three Things About Islam
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Old 10-02-2010, 04:43 PM
 
56 posts, read 69,771 times
Reputation: 14
man, i was typing for more than 20min....

and deleted them by mistake

be back when i have time
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:15 PM
 
Location: CA
2,464 posts, read 5,821,394 times
Reputation: 2593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quranist View Post
Secular is nothing. Iraq was secular, look at it now. Iran was secular under the Shah. Look at it now. Israel was secular, look at it now.

The religion itself does not go through any change when we talk about secularism. Secularism limits the scope of religion and is perceived by Muslims a declaration of defeat or a declaration that Islam is unfit, backward and not able to offer solutions. Thats why secularism is a dirty word for Muslims. Plus more religious parties(as the case with israel and Turkey) and pop up and create a more religious societies. Today israel is calling for a Jewish state and want land for Jews claiming its their biblical land. Thats not a secular system, thats a theocracy.

This is due to Judaism and Islam being a very legalistic and ritualistic religions that never went through any reformation. One is dominated by the Talmud, the other the Sunnah.

Christianity developed a Trinity theology, but it never had another revelation along with the scriptures. So Christianity was able to be secular and not contradict itself. That won't be possible for Judaism or Islam. Muslim are just more honest about while Jews try to hide that fact. But not any more.
Okay, I get it. With all due respect, talking to you is a complete waste of my time. You didn't answer my question, you didn't acknowledge or deny anything about my post except ONE WORD that you zeroed in on that you used as a springboard for your own dribble that has nothing to do with my premise. You're just talking AT me, not with me and I can't relate or communicate with people who do this... sorry.
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