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Old 10-24-2010, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Philippines
461 posts, read 509,852 times
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Sorry. Really do not have the time right now to do all the "homework."

Make a list of the places Moses visited in his so-called wandering around the "desert."

Then, look up each referenced place. The Internet should be able to give you an approximate date on when the site was founded.

I believe you will find that nearly all of these places that Moses visited post date when he was supposedly leading the "slaves" of Egypt around in circles.

Secondly, it is a healthy thing to pick up some reading material that gives some background material to the good ol' Bible. Doesn't matter if the material is "for" or "against." Best to read all of it.

What appears to be black and white in the Bible is not black and white at all.
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Old 10-25-2010, 01:47 AM
 
439 posts, read 482,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Well I believe not in books or men but G-d/creator. Books are written by man, and men are fallible.
The relation between us and the creator is not only believing in him

but also worshiping him and obeying him .

so how would we know the way to worship him and in what to obey him?

the answer is by the messengers who are supported by miracles and have direct link wtih God and from him they got the holy books.
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Old 10-25-2010, 04:01 AM
 
2,958 posts, read 2,166,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
The relation between us and the creator is not only believing in him

but also worshiping him and obeying him .

so how would we know the way to worship him and in what to obey him?

the answer is by the messengers who are supported by miracles and have direct link wtih God and from him they got the holy books.
Because a group of ignorant, primitive goat herders told you those things happened?

All religions arer based upon the words of a band of primitives who were trying to deal with a developing imagination. That's the truth.

To me religion is superstition. A superstition is a faith or belief which is based upon something which can not be proven.
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Old 10-26-2010, 08:36 AM
 
69 posts, read 83,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin.George View Post
Because a group of ignorant, primitive goat herders told you those things happened?

All religions arer based upon the words of a band of primitives who were trying to deal with a developing imagination. That's the truth.

To me religion is superstition. A superstition is a faith or belief which is based upon something which can not be proven.
Scriptures are dominant for a good reason. One of the ways the Islamic sects managed to find a way to swerve from truth is by coming up with another revelation that was not quite like the Koran but relied on the Koran's authority for its legitimact. The same can be said about the Talmud.

The reason is both the Jews and Rabs could not find a way to curb the scriptures influence. Europeans have tried many times but the NT remians the most influensive book in European history.

In short there are no scriptures like them. The Koran says concerning the OT and the Koran:

[28:48] Now that the truth has come to them from us, they said, "If only we could be given what was given to Moses!" Did they not disbelieve in what was given to Moses in the past? They said, "Both (scriptures) are works of magic that copied one another." They also said, "We are disbelievers in both of them."

[28:49] Say, "Then produce a scripture from GOD with better guidance than the two, so I can follow it, if you are truthful."

[28:50] If they fail to respond to you, then know that they follow only their own opinions. Who is farther astray than those who follow their own opinions, without guidance from GOD? GOD does not guide such wicked people.

[28:51] We have delivered the message to them, that they may take heed.

Here the Koran poised a challenge. They equated the OT with the Koran and refered to them as magic. However they were never able to produce any scriptures that can compete with them.

[28:52] Those whom we blessed with the previous scriptures will believe in this.

[28:53] When it is recited to them, they will say, "We believe in it. This is the truth from our Lord. Even before we heard of it, we were submitters."

[28:54] To these we grant twice the reward, because they steadfastly persevere. They counter evil works with good works, and from our provisions to them, they give.

[28:55] When they come across vain talk, they disregard it and say, "We are responsible for our deeds, and you are responsible for your deeds. Peace be upon you. We do not wish to behave like the ignorant ones."

Notice how the Koran once again equates belief in the OT with belief in the Koran since they say the same thing. I can relate to that. Most Muslims can't since they became sectarian. Just like the disbelievers equate the Koran and OT as fakes and scams, I equate them in authenticity.
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:57 AM
 
439 posts, read 482,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin.George View Post
Because a group of ignorant, primitive goat herders told you those things happened?

All religions arer based upon the words of a band of primitives who were trying to deal with a developing imagination. That's the truth.

To me religion is superstition. A superstition is a faith or belief which is based upon something which can not be proven.


if i have created my self or i was established
by chance then i would agree with you

but the brain can not accept that a perfect human is created by chance
the creator and the messengers and the holy books are logical.

i agree with you regarding all the holy books except the Quran.

because the Quran is the only holy book that have the exact words of God without addition or deletion.

the Quran is the final holy book and God promised that he will preserve it him self but the previous holy books he gave the responsibility to the people and they failed.

all the previous holy books contain additions and deletions that cause a corrupted creed.

if the final holy book is also corrupted then no a true believer would be exist .

if God only reward paradise for the believers and do nothing to non believers then i think no one would care
but there is hell also.
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,056 posts, read 30,547,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
because the Quran is the only holy book that have the exact words of God without addition or deletion.
And you "know" this how? Because the Quran says so? That's called circular logic, and guess what? It doesn't work.

That's not to take anything away from your own beliefs. They're yours; you just can't make a case for anyone else to accept them on the terms you've dictated.
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Old 10-27-2010, 03:52 PM
 
439 posts, read 482,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
And you "know" this how? Because the Quran says so? That's called circular logic, and guess what? It doesn't work.

That's not to take anything away from your own beliefs. They're yours; you just can't make a case for anyone else to accept them on the terms you've dictated.

There are hundreds of religions flourishing around the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Bahaism, Babism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Jainism, Confucianism etc. And each of these religions claim that their scripture is preserved from the day it was revealed (written) until our time. A religious belief is as authentic as the authenticity of the scripture it follows. And for any scripture to be labeled as authentically preserved it should follow some concrete and rational criteria.

Imagine this scenario: A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not.

Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory. Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain.

If the memorization part doesn't exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages.

Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time. None of them fit this required criteria, except one: This unique scripture is the Qur'an - revelation bestowed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) 1,418 years ago, as a guidance for all of humankind.


Proof of The Preservation of the Quran
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:02 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,427,760 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by finalmessage View Post
There are hundreds of religions flourishing around the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Bahaism, Babism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Jainism, Confucianism etc. And each of these religions claim that their scripture is preserved from the day it was revealed (written) until our time. A religious belief is as authentic as the authenticity of the scripture it follows. And for any scripture to be labeled as authentically preserved it should follow some concrete and rational criteria.

Imagine this scenario: A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not.

Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory. Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain.

If the memorization part doesn't exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages.

Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time. None of them fit this required criteria, except one: This unique scripture is the Qur'an - revelation bestowed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) 1,418 years ago, as a guidance for all of humankind.


Proof of The Preservation of the Quran

The qur'an is a authentic as you deem it and as unauthentic as others deem it. That is just simply it.

I don't care what you think of my tanakh, nor do I need to prove a thing to you.

Folks just need to get over the view that somehow there book is more special then others books........
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Old 10-28-2010, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,056 posts, read 30,547,756 times
Reputation: 10490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Folks just need to get over the view that somehow there book is more special then others books........
If that was actually to happen, I can only quote the old doo-wop song, "Life could be a dream. Sh-boom."
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Old 10-28-2010, 12:13 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,427,760 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X View Post
If that was actually to happen, I can only quote the old doo-wop song, "Life could be a dream. Sh-boom."


lol
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