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Old 10-27-2010, 05:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo700 View Post
nomad,
you cant even compare the two. when was the last time a group christians strapped bombs on themselves and walked into a crowded market place or hijacked commercial jets and flew them into buildings of innocent people. not to mention that they treat their women like dogs. christianty is about love and forgiveness and radical islam is about hate.


Christianity was not always about love and forgiveness. It has an equally violent history.

 
Old 10-27-2010, 09:44 AM
 
Location: anchorage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Christianity was not always about love and forgiveness. It has an equally violent history.
if you recall early civilization itself was violent. but in 2000 thousand years they have stayed the same and we have found the true meaning of christ.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 10:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo700 View Post
if you recall early civilization itself was violent. but in 2000 thousand years they have stayed the same and we have found the true meaning of christ.

Christianity has been violent into the modern age. As long as Christianity was the dominant and state sponsored religion in Europe it was very violent. People do all sorts of evil things in the name of religion.

State sponsored hatred of the other and done in the name of Christianity. The Catholic church and Martin Luther are 2 of the who hated the other and sought their destruction.

State sponsored pogroms and massacres that occurred all the way up to the 20th century in the name of religion and killing the other.

So Christianity is not about love and there are still Christians who do not have love.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Christianity has been violent into the modern age. As long as Christianity was the dominant and state sponsored religion in Europe it was very violent. People do all sorts of evil things in the name of religion.

State sponsored hatred of the other and done in the name of Christianity. The Catholic church and Martin Luther are 2 of the who hated the other and sought their destruction.

State sponsored pogroms and massacres that occurred all the way up to the 20th century in the name of religion and killing the other.

So Christianity is not about love and there are still Christians who do not have love.

Exactly! That's why the founding fathers would not allow a state religion to be established. Centuries of violence in the name of Christianity--or whatever might be deemed the "right" brand of Christianity by whomever was in power at the moment--were fresh in their minds.

Even in the early years of this nation (and during colonialism) -- It was a Christian sect doing the Salem witchcraft trials and murders, and an incident when Puritan Christians hanged some Quakers. The first Jews came into New Amsterdam in 1654 fleeing the Inquisition, a Christian action, in Recife, Brazil. The violence that came with slavery was often sanctioned by Christianity with supporting Bible verses.

Go back a little further to medieval Europe. There were constant battles over crowns and lands, extremely bloody, as people hacked one another to death in the fields with swords and exes, each army believing they had Christ on their side. The Christian church was the court system, and sentences of public whippings, amputations, hangings, beheadings and drawing-and-quartering were handed down by the religious leaders.

Jews were regularly exiled, persecuted, killed and tortured by Christians. In England, the Jewish community was required to send a representative to the local church on Easter to be publicly slapped for killing Christ.

Christians imposed violence on one another, too, all the time. People were burned at the stake for going against the church's rules, including for translating Scripture into a language understood by the common person. And it was the church above all else that imposed the subjugation of women and made them the property of their male relatives, using Scripture to bolster that argument. If you were a woman, your choices were to be traded like cattle in marriage to whomever your father could make the best deal with, or spend your life in a convent. Most of the Islamic cultures are not kind to women, but Muslim women have at least always been able to own property. Christian women were not.

People forget how relatively recent this all is. It was only in the 1980's that the laws were changed in the United States to allow a woman to legally refuse sexual relations with her husband. Before that, he could throw her down and force her, and she had no legal recourse against this type of rape. It was only in 1981 that the first woman in the US was acquitted of killing her husband based on self-defense. There were hundreds of other battered wives sitting in prison for having done the same thing because charges were rarely brought against a man who beat his wife. No, the US was not officially a Christian country, but these wrongs were the result of the remnants of the Christian perception that a wife was subject to her husband, and therefore his property with which to do as he pleased.

Christianity has changed in many ways, although its wrongs still show up in injustice and neglect. Let's hope Islam changes, too, as those within it see that there is another way to live.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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"Should all Muslims be given the same label because of a few?

Are we really naive to think terrorism is only being done by a few? "

Whats a few? We seem to be locked into a debate where either "most of them are our enemies" or "its just a handful"

Neither is the case.

The number of folks who actually engage in acts of terrorism is in fact a handful, or the casualties, incidents, etc would be much larger than they are (even in places with the most muslim on muslim violence, like Iraq for ex).

The number who sympathize with AQ's campaign of violence against the west and other forms of violent Salafi extremism, is, I think its pretty certain, less than 10%. 10% of a billion people is still a lot of people. But a lot fewer than muslims who are not. There may be places (like parts of Pashtun NW pakistan) where the percentage is much higher.

The number who sympathize with terrorist attacks on Israel is undoubtedly higher, but most of those folks dont live near Israel, and havent really thought through it and are just accepting unthinkingly a distinction between terrorists and "freedom fighters".

I think on a day to day basis most muslims in places like Indonesia, bangladesh, etc are just worried about bringing in their rice harvest, working in a low wage factory, etc and are not really thinking about terrorism one way or the other.

a small but not insignificant number of muslims are on the front lines against terrorism.

For the most part muslims living in the west are more "liberal" on these issues than muslims living in the muslim world. OTOH while there are more self consciously antiterrorist muslims living in the West, there may be a higher percentage of active terrorist supporters - fewer are simply oblivious than you would find in poor peasant societies.

I think its clear that the vast majority of American muslims are strongly opposed to terrorism, and not even all of them make excuses for Hamas attacks on Israel. While there is assimilation in Western Europe, one gets the impression that it opposition to terrorism is weaker in the muslim community there than here. A tribute to our longer and stronger experience with assimilating immigrants, but also perhaps differences in origins in the different muslim communities.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 01:14 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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"Exactly, Sir Les. Money, money, money. It's all about the money. For instance, we just sold 60 billion dollars worth of weapons to Saudia Arabia!! Now, where did those terrorists from 9/11 come from??"

the terrorists were born in Saudi, but they and Bin Laden were in exile from Saudi, whose govt they hoped (and hope) to overthrow. SA has in fact cracked down on local AQ.

SA needs weaponry, given its proximity to Iran. To refuse to sell weapons to SA,due to the actions of Saudis who were enemies of the Saudi govt, would be only a gift to Iran.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 01:15 PM
 
Location: In a Galaxy far, far away called Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Should all Muslims be given the same label because of a few?

Are we really naive to think terrorism is only being done by a few?

Are Muslims able to separate their religion and live in democratic and secular societies?

Is it right to hate a whole group based on untruths?



Food for thought.
Because terrorism isn't being done by just a few. It's foot soldiers, financier's and supporters number well over 25% of all Islam. Look up Wahabbism and check out the estimates on how many Muslims were partying on the streets of their cities when they found out about the 9/11 attacks. That number was in the hundreds of thousands. And, no - no one should hate the people - but we can certainly hate the practice/beliefs and be wary of those who practice them. There isn't any phobia here, just good old awareness.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 01:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82 View Post
Because terrorism isn't being done by just a few. It's foot soldiers, financier's and supporters number well over 25% of all Islam. Look up Wahabbism and check out the estimates on how many Muslims were partying on the streets of their cities when they found out about the 9/11 attacks. That number was in the hundreds of thousands. And, no - no one should hate the people - but we can certainly hate the practice/beliefs and be wary of those who practice them. There isn't any phobia here, just good old awareness.
Amen. Barbarians must always be watched carefully BECAUSE they are barbarians . . . especially as they grow in number.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 02:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldawg82 View Post
Because terrorism isn't being done by just a few. It's foot soldiers, financier's and supporters number well over 25% of all Islam. Look up Wahabbism and check out the estimates on how many Muslims were partying on the streets of their cities when they found out about the 9/11 attacks. That number was in the hundreds of thousands. And, no - no one should hate the people - but we can certainly hate the practice/beliefs and be wary of those who practice them. There isn't any phobia here, just good old awareness.
Wahabi Islam is practiced In SA and it is a very conservative, intolerant brand of Islam. My thoughts are we ought not give a dime to SA because they export that brand of Islam through out the world and that is what is dangerous.

On the other hand not all Islam is the same and certainly to say otherwise is like saying all Christians are alike.
 
Old 10-27-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 23,030,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Christianity was not always about love and forgiveness. It has an equally violent history.
True in a way, but it's a tad misleading.

Jesus and the Apostles did not lead armies. If you compare the first two centuries of Christianity to the first two centuries of Islam then Christianity comes out way less violent.

I think a Muslim could argue that Islam accomplished more in its first two centuries. That yes there were Muslim armies, etc but that these helped minority Christians who were oppressed by the Byzantines and that the Caliphate revitalized an area in decline due to decadent/decaying empires. Still I don't think they could plausibly make the argument it was less violent than Christianity pre-Constantine. And considering the treatment of Zoroastrians and polytheists in the first two centuries of Islam I'm not sure they could argue it caused less destruction either.

There's a bit of truth in the good and the bad. Early Islam built a civilization that revitalized knowledge, advanced astronomy, helped transmit the ideas of China and India to Europe, and treated Jews better than early Christianity did. Early Islam also led armies that killed thousands, oppressed Zoroastrians, looted from people, exiled entire tribes, and violently fought amongst itself.
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